OLP 006: Get your Ham in the Game – Transcript

OLP 006: Get Your Ham in the Game audio

(00:00:00):
[Intro Music: There Is A Dark Place by Tom Rosenthal].
Jordan (00:00:28):
Hi I’m Jordan.
Lex (00:00:29):
And I’m Lex.
Jordan (00:00:30):
And this is Or, Learn Parkour.
Lex (00:00:32):
A podcast about ADHD done by two people who have ADHD.
Jordan (00:00:36):
We sure do. And we also have sweaters on because it’s fall.
Lex (00:00:40):
Well it’s not technically fall.
Jordan (00:00:42):
But it feels like fall.
Lex (00:00:43):
It does.
Jordan (00:00:44):
It does. It’s chilly. My toes are cold. I ordered new slippers today.
Lex (00:00:48):
Ooh. Tell me about your slippies.
Jordan (00:00:50):
Okay. Well, okay. So I ordered them on Etsy and I know, they’re knitted and they have hearts on the toes and I’m very excited about them. I, you know, I, you signed up for this. You, you knew what I was like before, before you decided to live with me. And yet here we are.
Lex (00:01:13):
Yeah. I mean, that’s fair. You also decided to live with me and look what I’ve done to our home in preparation for this season.
Jordan (00:01:19):
You have made quick and delightful work of the target dollar section and I respect you for that.
Lex (00:01:24):
It’s not my fault they had five dollar witch brooms?
Jordan (00:01:26):
I, it’s-
Lex (00:01:26):
So many gourds.
Jordan (00:01:28):
We are thoroughly be-gourded.
Lex (00:01:29):
Yeah.
Jordan (00:01:30):
It’s great. It’s fall. We’ve got our Apple cider and our hot cocoa. And we also have another episode for you today.
Lex (00:01:37):
From our mouths to your ears.
Jordan (00:01:39):
And hearts. I hope.
Lex (00:01:40):
Maybe.
Jordan (00:01:41):
And stomachs, if that’s-
Lex (00:01:43):
Is this a war thing?
Jordan (00:01:46):
I really hope not. I don’t want to be involved in that.
Lex (00:01:49):
Yeah, no, no.
Jordan (00:01:51):
I meant it in like a Chicken Soup for the Soul kind of way, but thanks for that alternate perspective. Anyways, do you want to do a podcast?
Lex (00:02:00):
Sure.
Jordan (00:02:01):
Alright?
Lex (00:02:01):
What are we doing our podcast about today?
Jordan (00:02:03):
Today we’re doing our podcast about feelings.
Lex (00:02:05):
Oh, right. Yeah. We’re talking about feelings, right. Specifically rejection sensitive dysphoria and emotional dysregulation. Two things that are commonly associated with ADHD, but there are some really complex and complicated issues surrounding both of them, but we will get into later on. But, uh, Jordan, why don’t you tell me a little bit about this rejection sensitive dysphoria.
Jordan (00:02:25):
It’s called a lot of different things. You might hear rejection sensitive, rejection, sensitivity. Are there any other names you’ve heard of for it?
Lex (00:02:31):
Specifically for RSD?
Jordan (00:02:33):
Yeah. Well RSD.
Lex (00:02:33):
I mean people say RSD a lot. I once saw someone say rejection sensitive diaspora, but I think that was just a mistake.
Jordan (00:02:41):
Fair enough.
Lex (00:02:42):
I did chuckle.
Jordan (00:02:43):
A little confused, but he got the spirit.
Lex (00:02:44):
Yeah no, I mostly was just like, hmm.
Jordan (00:02:47):
Well.
Lex (00:02:48):
It’s elitist and classist to correct people’s words and language, but it did give me a little giggle.
Jordan (00:02:53):
Whatever that stands for. That’s the super fun thing about RSD and by fun, I mean, kind of confusing is we’re just beginning to understand it as part of ADHD, but what it is is a severe physical and emotional pain caused by real or perceived rejection, failure or criticism. So in layman’s terms basically means like that John Mulaney bit where it’s like, do my friends hate me or do I just need to sleep? Except sleeping, doesn’t help. And it’s like all the time, it’s a very strong reaction to rejection real or perceived as it’s noted in the definition. And it’s something that is not technically part of the DSM diagnostic criteria for diagnosing ADHD, but that description and sort of the cluster of symptoms and reactions and way it usually plays out as reported by 99% of people who have ADHD and is actually reported as being the most impairing aspect of ADHD by one in three adolescents and adults. Uh, so it’s a pretty significant part of the experience. A lot of people report feeling like this, I know that I do a lot. And that was one of the big aha moments for me when I was learning about ADHD and how it played into my life. And I was getting my diagnosis. It was the big like, Oh yeah, no, I, I feel like that all the time, sort of.
Lex (00:04:17):
Yeah. I don’t have very strong RSD symptoms. I have more symptoms that are attributed to emotional dysregulation. It’s very similar to RSD and I’m just going to give you all the definition for that so that we can have some context going forward here. Emotional dysregulation is something described as the inability to properly modulate and regulate emotions. And it’s often seen in people with ADHD, similar to rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is also commonly associated with ADHD. It is not listed in the DSM.
Jordan (00:04:49):
So that’s interesting that you bring that up because two things, 1) we don’t know a lot about what the cause of RSD is, but some people think it’s an element or like a flavor of emotional dysregulation. And you’re correct that it’s not a part of the DSM criteria for ADHD. However, emotional dysregulation is one of the six fundamental features that the European Union uses to define or diagnose ADHD in communities over there. So it’s something that people have been aware of for a while, but both people with ADHD and mental health professionals have taken to with different speeds.
Lex (00:05:32):
Yeah, no. When, when I said that this is a complex sort of discussion that we’re about to have Jordan just touched on a few of those things, because there’s a lot of people who feel a lot of things who say a lot of things and who think a lot of things and a lot of that stuff doesn’t line up at all. So there’s a lot of confusion surrounding both RSD and emotional dysregulation. There’s a lot of comorbidity that complicates where it comes from what starts, it, there’s a lot of disagreement on whether it’s actually a disorder or if it’s just a response to trauma or if it’s just the way your brain functions, there’s a lot of discussion on whether that’s true or not. So we’re going to try to dig into it as best as we can, but again, we’re, uh, we’re not medical professionals. We’re just two people who have ADHD and experience some of this stuff. And we did our best to look at a lot of the different arguments surrounding this. So we’re, you know, we’re not trying to speak for the whole community and we’re not trying to speak for the people who have done this research. We just kind of want to give a brief overview in a palatable manner for y’all because let me tell ya, trying to dig through this online, even on social media, just trying to look up what people say about these things.
Jordan (00:06:43):
There so much, I don’t want to say controversy, but a lot of different experiences.
Lex (00:06:49):
Dare I say, there is some discourse.
Jordan (00:06:51):
There’s course on a disk.
Lex (00:06:54):
Yeah.
Jordan (00:06:54):
Spinning at dangerous speeds.
Lex (00:06:56):
Well, and also just a big lack of understanding and knowledge that it even is a thing.
Jordan (00:07:01):
Yeah.
Lex (00:07:01):
That was something I saw a lot when getting ready for this episode, when I, I just searched terms on Twitter to see what people are saying about it. Uh, get an idea of what the general consensus is.
Jordan (00:07:12):
Yeah. It’s not a thing that’s easy to measure.
Lex (00:07:16):
All that to say we are not an end all, be all. And also these terms are constantly shifting and changing as we’ve talked about in a couple of our episodes. So right now we’re going to refer to these as emotional dysregulation and rejection sensitive dysphoria or RSD.
Jordan (00:07:31):
Who knows what the word for that is going to be when we learn more, but as somebody who experiences emotional dysregulation, do you want to talk about what that feels like?
Lex (00:07:40):
I mean kind of what it says on the tin, like an inability to modulate your emotions. So it often comes out as just really strong emotions and strong reactions. For me, it’s not necessarily just bad emotions, but I feel things very deeply, very loudly and very quickly. And because of my impulsive nature, that also sort of ties into it I think of like, I have a gut reaction and a gut feeling and it’s big and it’s aggressive and it will immediately trigger crying or laughter or some sort of physiological response. Like basically it comes out as having pretty volatile emotions or pers- perceptive, like the perception of really volatile emotions.
Jordan (00:08:29):
That makes sense.
Lex (00:08:29):
Um, and it just, it it’s more about the quickness of it and my inability to modulate or not even modulate, but my inability to maintain some sort of equilibrium and be able to have what is considered an appropriate emotional response in social situations. The time that it’s most apparent is in arguments. If I’m in a, an argument or debate, and somebody says something that I really vehemently disagree with, even if I know what I’m talking about, and I know that I have the sources to cite and the words in my head to back up, what I’m talking about, I will just start crying and get immediately really flustered and not be able to control the feelings of embarrassment, anger, rage. What have you. Uh, so I think that, and sadness most often come, come to light, I think for me, but when I think about me as a child, the utter delight and joy that some things would bring me and just laughing for very loud and very long times, you know, when I’m not. And like, it just, I was one of those kids that couldn’t stop laughing, you know?
Lex (00:09:38):
And so you kind of had to just like, wait it out. And that’s part of why I’m on Zoloft, right? Like I have major depressive disorder, generalized anxiety and ADHD, and looking back, it becomes pretty clear that a lot of my depressive symptoms and how debilitating my depression can be is because whenever those waves of emotion come up, it’s nearly impossible to stop. Um, stop myself from feeling that way and, or make those feelings a little bit smaller and more manageable. It’s nearly impossible without medication. And so I got put on Zoloft years ago now because it was specifically to help me regulate my emotions. Literally so I would stop crying so much.
Jordan (00:10:20):
Well, that makes sense.
Lex (00:10:21):
Yeah. So that’s Been my experience with emotional dysregulation. Again, it’s pretty much what it says on the tin. Yeah. I can’t regulate my emotions very well.
Jordan (00:10:28):
That makes sense. In terms of ADHD too, because one big part of ADHD is executive dysfunction and regulating emotions is an executive function, especially during arguments and things like that. But thanks for sharing that.
Lex (00:10:44):
Yeah.
Jordan (00:10:45):
One thing that-
Lex (00:10:47):
Brought to you by the Muppets. Oh good.
Jordan (00:10:52):
Um, I was going to say something and I don’t remember what it was.
Lex (00:10:56):
I threw you off your rhythm.
Jordan (00:10:58):
You did.
Lex (00:10:58):
I kind of derailed you a little bit off on that trail, but what’s your experience been with rejection sensitive dysphoria?
Jordan (00:11:04):
That’s a good question. And I think it’s important that we covered emotional dysregulation first because they’re absolutely related. A lot of people think that RSD is like the sad part of emotional dysregulation or the element of it that just specifically corresponds to criticism and rejection and failure. But for me, RSD feels very similar to how you describe emotional dysregulation in terms of just being washed over by this wave of emotion. But it’s specifically emotions that are triggered by failure or disappointment. Other people being disappointed in me or not feeling like I fit in or feeling embarrassed.
Lex (00:11:48):
So like shame?
Jordan (00:11:49):
Right.
Lex (00:11:50):
And guilt?
Jordan (00:11:51):
Yes. Oh, shame. Oh my, my bosom buddy shame. That’s a big one. And it’s, uh, there are two sort of main ways people describe how RSD manifests and it’s either internalization or externalization. Internalizing the rejection sensitive dysphoria is that like shame corner that we’ve talked about before, where it’s feelings of intense, overwhelming guilt or embarrassment, it’s really negative self-talk, it’s feeling useless and terrible, like to the point where it can appear as like a major depressive disorder issue. It’s a physical pain sometimes like you feel in your chest, like physical guilt, it’s that feeling. And the thing that’s overwhelming and hard to manage about it is it’s a huge emotion that can be triggered by a real experience or perceived. Uh, it can feel like social anxiety, a lot. In terms of you can walk into a room and have an interaction with somebody and misinterpret it and perceive it as rejection even when it’s not, it’s like, Oh, this person said they have other plans and they can’t hang out with me today. They must hate me. They must hate being my friend and I’m a huge burden to them. And I would be better off not even being here just instantaneously your brain, totally throws it into that space instead of having the ability to step back and be like, Oh, someone else probably just ask them to hang out first.
Lex (00:13:22):
Yeah. Well, and I think it’s interesting that you talk about it as being triggered by perceived rejection or real rejection, because a thing about both of these more emotionally based symptoms, they are often attributed to mood disorders and not necessarily ADHD. I don’t know. I think it’s really interesting. I, for a while thought that I may have BPD. And when I talked to my therapist about it, she was like, no, no, you don’t have BPD.
Jordan (00:13:49):
Sure.
Lex (00:13:50):
Um, it’s interesting that you talk about it in relation to other people.
Jordan (00:13:53):
It could also be in relation to the self too. It can be in terms of, I didn’t meet the standard that I set for myself. I failed at this task. I am not, you can fail at a lot of things aside social situations. I have done that. And it’s interesting too, because like you said, it can be misinterpreted as BP. It can appear similar to major depression when you’re feeling it due to social situations. It could look like social anxiety can even look like bipolar or other mood disorders like that because it’s such a cycle with such highs and lows.
Lex (00:14:29):
So there is a lot of overlap.
Jordan (00:14:31):
Right.
Lex (00:14:31):
You know, so thank you for sharing your personal experience with RSD. Um, so why is this connected to ADHD? How this connected ADHD? Tell me about that. Let’s, let’s talk about how these are related to ADHD.
Jordan (00:14:42):
Well, we know that-
Lex (00:14:45):
Root Beer.
Jordan (00:14:47):
We know that Root Beer misses us. We know that almost everybody with ADHD reports feeling like this, not everybody, but a lot of people do. We know that one in three people report it as the most debilitating aspect of their ADHD. And there are some thoughts that it’s a by-product of the way the ADHD brain works in terms of just the general baseline understanding that an ADHD brain is low on dopamine. It’s looking for stimulation and even negative stimulation is still stimulation. So that proclivity to dwell on things that stimulate your brain, even if it’s in a negative way, can lead to RSD some people think, but some people think it’s also directly related to the way that ADHD people, especially ADHD, kids are treated and a trauma response to that.
Lex (00:15:39):
And the same thing can be said about emotional dysregulation because emotional dysregulation is not just attributed to ADHD, but people with PTSD, people with CPTSD, people with autism, people with borderline personality disorder, people with bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, literally most mental health disorders and or states of being that cause, or that relate to any sort of emotional response you might have a lot of people report having emotional dysregulation in those instances, which has led a lot of people to say, Hey, is this an inherent way that our brain works? Or is this a direct response to trauma? And so part of the reason this is so complicated is because people don’t agree.
Jordan (00:16:20):
We don’t.
Lex (00:16:21):
And people are very vocally, vocally aggressive about how they don’t agree with.
Jordan (00:16:26):
They’re having emotions about strong emotions, which makes sense.
Lex (00:16:30):
It does. It does. So I guess my point being here that we don’t have the answers, we just know how we feel and we know how we’ve been told to work on self regulation and how medication can help us. I guess that’s why we wanted to talk about it because we’ve been seeing this conversation happening a lot in the neurodivergent community.
Jordan (00:16:48):
Yes.
Lex (00:16:49):
And so we wanted to talk about why it is related to ADHD, but you know, we both mentioned that these are not in the, um, DSM.
Jordan (00:16:58):
Correct.
Lex (00:16:58):
As symptoms of ADHD.
Jordan (00:17:00):
Correct.
Lex (00:17:01):
But, but every like most people who have ADHD do report one or the other, or both.
Jordan (00:17:06):
Correct.
Lex (00:17:06):
So, um, we don’t have an answer to this, but also like, Hey, hey people who work for the health-
Jordan (00:17:13):
People who do the health job-
Lex (00:17:15):
Hey people who do the health job.
Jordan (00:17:17):
People who write the big book.
Lex (00:17:19):
Why?
Jordan (00:17:20):
Well, a lot of people think the why is because it’s hard to measure. We can report feeling like that, but there’s no criteria for you feel a certain amount of bad. Like I feel 10 bad today this event made me feel 7 bad. This event made me feel 2 bad. Like it’s hard to measure, which is why some people have been hesitant to list it as criteria. Although in all honesty, most medical professionals who are actually familiar with ADHD don’t care about the DSM diagnostics anyways, because they’re not actually really effective for anyone who is out of K through 12 school.
Lex (00:17:56):
Yeah. And also worth noting that pretty much everything about the entire neurodivergent experience is described and labeled as it affects neuro-typical society and people. And so I do think it’s worth noting that, uh, things like rejection sensitive dysphoria or emotional dysregulation implies that there is something incorrect or wrong because those sort of responses don’t fit in well with society as we have set it up.
Jordan (00:18:26):
This was true. This is true. To that point. A lot of people specifically take Umbrage, umbridge, take, um, take offense, take issue-
Lex (00:18:36):
Sorry Umbridge just makes me think of she who must not be named. Ruined.
Jordan (00:18:39):
Take offense.
Lex (00:18:40):
Just absolutely ruined like one of the-. I was going to talk about that for my dopamine trampoline remember as like the intro to fall and now look at-
Jordan (00:18:49):
Now we, we’re not going to do that. We’re not going to give that situation more airtime, um, trans rights.
Lex (00:18:56):
I was going to say except to say that she’s wrong and history will show.
Jordan (00:18:59):
This is true. This is true.
Lex (00:19:00):
Who’s right and who’s not. F*** you. Sorry. I’m sorry. I’m fine. Everything’s fine.
Jordan (00:19:06):
Not it’s not. We’re allowed to be mad about that.
Lex (00:19:07):
Yeah no, it’s taking this community that grew around this book series that was life-changing for a lot of people and-
Jordan (00:19:14):
And still can be.
Lex (00:19:15):
But also like, I don’t want to give her money.
Jordan (00:19:18):
No, [whispering] pirate it. What?
Lex (00:19:21):
Pirate it?
Jordan (00:19:21):
Huh?
Lex (00:19:21):
Don’t. Do not pirate it. That’s what you said. Right?
Jordan (00:19:24):
Right.
Lex (00:19:29):
Um, sorry. Uh, I’m not, you know what? No, I’m not sorry because this is an ADHD podcast and if you’ve made it to this episode, which is what episode six?
Jordan (00:19:38):
I can’t do math.
Lex (00:19:39):
Is it? I think it is. Yeah, because episode five was our last one so I think this one is up so six.
Jordan (00:19:43):
I thought it was episode- it’s an episode, you’re here. There have been episodes before it.
Lex (00:19:49):
Yeah. So, you know, you know that this is a thing that happens.
Jordan (00:19:54):
What were we talking about?
Lex (00:19:56):
Feelings and strong emotional responses.
Jordan (00:20:00):
Strong emotional responses? No, that’s not us. We don’t have strong feelings about things.
Lex (00:20:08):
Yeah no.
Jordan (00:20:08):
That’s never happened on this podcast.
Lex (00:20:10):
Never. Um, yeah. Uh, I really don’t remember what we were talking about before.
Jordan (00:20:16):
That’s okay.
Lex (00:20:16):
I was, I don’t even remember how we got onto this.
Jordan (00:20:20):
I don’t either. What else do we need to talk about?
Lex (00:20:23):
Oh we were talking about the discourse and how um actual people who work with-
Jordan (00:20:25):
Oh, people don’t like the use of the word dysphoria because that’s-
Lex (00:20:30):
Neurodivergence is the dy-. We were talking about that. And so this is all framed in a way that is not actually necessarily set up for success within what is considered the stereotypical normal.
Jordan (00:20:43):
Sure.
Lex (00:20:44):
So I think that’s worth giving some critical thought to.
Jordan (00:20:47):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And you’re right. There’s a huge discussion about, you know, some people who refer to ADHD as a superpower and there are some beneficial things that just don’t work the way other people want them to work. But I know for example, with RSD, the reason it’s called rejection sensitive dysphoria is, comes from the Greek dysphoria, meaning difficult to bear and like, to be super clear. That’s not like when I talk about my experiences with rejection sensitive dysphoria, it’s not, I am processing a thing differently. It often times really genuinely is incorrect and it really, sometimes, really genuinely is like debilitating in a way that just sucks.
Lex (00:21:31):
No, I think that’s yeah. Sorry. I mostly am just talking about like the way we frame it.
Jordan (00:21:36):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Lex (00:21:36):
Because feeling bad is not fun.
Jordan (00:21:39):
Yeah. No, I have so many experiences in my life that have just been shame when they really didn’t need to be. I mean, like for example, my first year in Idaho actually was just all RSD because I mean, it turned out, okay.
Lex (00:21:55):
Yeah.
Jordan (00:21:56):
Obviously we’re here now. I am very thankful for my time there. But uh, for context, I did two years of community college at home in a very small group at a community college. And then I moved to a different state in with people I had never met, joined an audition only program that I was supposed to do in two years when it was a three-year program. So I was jumping into a program full of people who already knew each other way better than they knew me and had been doing this work that I was very new to four years prior. So I jumped in and I felt like hot, garbage leaving class every day for like the first couple of months. I remember just like biking home, like my face, like burning, feeling nauseous. And it like, it, it turned out fine. I got my degree. I did fine. I got good feedback from my professors. But like-
Lex (00:22:52):
Well and you made good friends too.
Jordan (00:22:54):
And I did. Yeah. Obviously. Obviously.
Lex (00:22:57):
Not just me, I’m not in the theater program so I wasn’t necessarily referring to myself.
Jordan (00:23:01):
No, I made wonderful other friends but um, but I wasn’t that much of a failure obviously, cause I didn’t get kicked out of the program. And I, I got my degree and I did work that I was proud of and I, I got good feedback from people, but I feel like I, it really was dysphoria, difficult to bear because like physically, it felt awful. And mentally, I feel like I could have been so much more present and gotten so much more out of it and more open to work that we were doing and made so much more progress if I had not been so overwhelmed by those feelings.
Lex (00:23:35):
Yeah. That makes sense.
Jordan (00:23:37):
Um, and it took A) just time and B) people specifically pulling me aside, like I’m, I’m so thankful for the professors that I had there who sat me down and were like, listen, I see you. And this is scary, but I need you to know that I, you’re here for a reason who had to like sit me down and say that to my face so many times before I could start believing it, you know, I wasn’t doing anything wrong. Nobody was saying like you’re behind Jordan pick up. It was, it was perceived rejection. It was perceived failure. And it’s, it sucks like in that context, I’d say it really is a dysphoria or a dysregulation. But I mean, and there’s other contexts where like emotional dysregulation experiencing your life, deeply laughing for a really long time is not a dys.
Lex (00:24:21):
I think my experience has just been like the times that I can think of where RSD comes to mind for that feeling of shame and feeling or assuming that what I’m doing is already bad and already incorrect. And I’ve already done a bad job of existing in the world. Stems a lot from feedback that I have gotten about things that I think are related to emotional dysregulation. And so we’ve talked about this, not on the podcast, but Jordan and I have talked about this, um, a very common theme for me in past friendships and past relationships, in a lot of different past social situations, really but I have heard the phrase you are too much, or you are so much all the time or I cannot handle you because you are a lot. And so the thoughts of hearing those things and being rightfully upset about hearing those things.
Jordan (00:25:12):
Absolutely. That’s an awful thing to say to somebody.
Lex (00:25:14):
Yeah. Yes, exactly. I am not saying that that’s the, that that was a perceived rejection cause that was like a real, that was a mean thing for people to say, right?
Jordan (00:25:24):
Yeah, that’s, that’s a garbage person thing to say.
Lex (00:25:26):
So in that vein though, I have had to work really, really hard to not think or assume that that’s how people are going to react to me.
Jordan (00:25:38):
That experience is very common amongst ADHD people, especially a combination or hyperactive type. And you’ll see a lot of sources, at least I did when I was researching this episode that say very specifically rejection sensitive dysphoria is not because of trauma. However, some people think the contrary and the facts that they use in that argument make a lot of sense because.
Lex (00:26:04):
Wait, which argument?
Jordan (00:26:05):
The argument that RSD. Thank you. That RSD is related to, or a product of trauma.
Lex (00:26:13):
Oh. Okay. Okay. Sorry. I just wanted to clarify which, which side we’re on right now.
Jordan (00:26:16):
No, that’s fair. So looking at the idea that RSD is related to trauma, that makes a lot of sense because a lot of people, myself included, yourself included, like you’ve just said, have a childhood experience of, you know, being told they’re being annoying, being told to shut up and sit down and stop fidgeting. Being told, why can’t you do this? Just, just do it and being set up for failure in that sense, because they can’t. The numbers say that children with ADHD hear, 20,000 additional critical or corrective messages before their 12th birthday, uh, when compared with neuro-typical children. So.
Lex (00:26:54):
Hey, um, y’all.
Jordan (00:26:56):
Yeah. Stop doing that s***.
Lex (00:26:59):
Yikes. Yikes.
Jordan (00:27:00):
On the topic of strong feelings.
Lex (00:27:01):
Also just be nice to kids.
Jordan (00:27:03):
Yeah.
Lex (00:27:04):
They’re people, like they’re people with real feelings and I don’t care if you don’t want to have kids, but you can’t just be mean to kids.
Jordan (00:27:11):
You can’t be mean to kids and they’re learning how to be adults. They’re learning how to-
Lex (00:27:16):
Like, I hate that this is discourse that’s occurring. I hate that. I hate that so much. Be nice to kids. As somebody who does not want kids, but also loves kids. I can tell you, kids are cool as s***. Like you just have to give them space to get to know them. Like, you know, any other person.
Jordan (00:27:30):
Oh, you know, like humans.
Lex (00:27:31):
Yeah. Sorry again. Strong emotions. Anyways.
Jordan (00:27:35):
Anyways.
Lex (00:27:36):
Well this is like whiplash between information and personal anecdotes and just a lot of anger.
Jordan (00:27:44):
But imagine that the feelings episode-
Lex (00:27:46):
The feelings episode.
Jordan (00:27:46):
Has strong feelings. So there are arguments that hold water to RSD, being a result of trauma, whether RSD happens because of trauma or not, that trauma still happens. So be nice to kids. I think that sums it up. Don’t you?
Lex (00:28:02):
Be nice to everybody if you can. And if you can’t be nice, like Thumper was right. If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all. Again, I-
Jordan (00:28:11):
The paradox of tolerance, but that’s a whole, that’s a whole other podcast.
Lex (00:28:15):
Yeah. Like how to hold the view that you enjoy things but you also recognize that not everything is good, including us. Right. I think there’s that there’s space to hold for ourselves in that we are imperfect.
Jordan (00:28:29):
Yeah.
Lex (00:28:30):
And all of us have negative thoughts at times.
Jordan (00:28:35):
This is true.
Lex (00:28:36):
And we also have positive thoughts.
Jordan (00:28:38):
This is true.
Lex (00:28:38):
And we also often have hypocritical or contradictory thoughts. And I think we need to make more space for people to acknowledge that. Cause like the cognitive dissonance, it’s not cute.
Jordan (00:28:48):
Speaking of positive and negative thoughts though.
Lex (00:28:50):
Yeah.
Jordan (00:28:51):
Do you want to share anything or have any advice about how you handle emotional dysregulation?
Lex (00:28:58):
Yeah. How I self-regulate?
Jordan (00:28:59):
Yeah.
Lex (00:29:00):
Is the term, I think that self regu- self regulation. Good Lord. Self-regulation.
Jordan (00:29:05):
Isn’t that what monks have to do?
Lex (00:29:08):
It’s flagellation.
Jordan (00:29:09):
I thought that was when you throw someone out a window?
Lex (00:29:10):
Flagellation is when you whip yourself. I don’t. If this is a joke I don’t understand it.
Jordan (00:29:14):
Yeah. Sorry. The word defenestration. It was, uh, I was going to keep going with it, but that’s fair.
Lex (00:29:18):
No, sorry. I was like, no flagellation self-flagellation is when they would whip. You know my, my very specific European studies focused degree just was like, no. Self flagellation.
Jordan (00:29:32):
And my three years of French was like [in french] defenestration.
Lex (00:29:36):
Yeah, no. And I was just like, it’s in the DaVinci code, like-
Jordan (00:29:41):
But was it in National Treasure?
Lex (00:29:43):
I can’t speak to anything about National Treasure because the last time I saw National Treasure was several years ago and I was very high on edibles.
Jordan (00:29:52):
That’s the only way to watch that movie.
Lex (00:29:54):
I just remember when one of the the, cause does the villain die?
Jordan (00:29:57):
I don’t remember.
Lex (00:29:58):
Exactly. I don’t know if the villain dies or if something bad happens to him physically, but whatever bad thing happens, I just looked at the person I was watching this movie with and I just go bummer that’s like.
Jordan (00:30:12):
How is that any different from you watching that movie sober though?
Lex (00:30:15):
I think sober, I would probably just be like, wow, okay. Or like good for them. I dunno. You know, it would be more succ- like not more succinct. I don’t think you can get more succinct than bummer. It was, it was really, I just, I have such a vivid memory.
Jordan (00:30:30):
We all have that one friend.
Lex (00:30:32):
Oh, so many good stories about that that person. So yeah, that was my experience with National Treasure so I don’t know.
Jordan (00:30:39):
Okay. Um, what’s your experience with self flatu-
Lex (00:30:43):
Self-regulation?
Jordan (00:30:44):
Self-regulation.
Lex (00:30:45):
There we go. Well, medication, I think would be my first thing.
Jordan (00:30:50):
Oh, that reminds me I was supposed to say that there’s medication for RSD.
Lex (00:30:54):
Oh yeah. Or ADHD medication that specifically helps with RSD or whatever. Right?
Jordan (00:30:58):
Both. As a matter of fact ADHD medication that is extra good for RSD is monoamine oxidase inhibitors, or MOAI’s, it’s a specific type of antidepressant and some things that are awesome about it for ADHD treatment is the RSD thing where it makes people feel a lot better because of that. Uh, it’s also non habit forming. There’s no like addiction possibility. It’s not regulated. There’s a lot of really good quality-
Lex (00:31:32):
I’m assuming it’s like regulated. It’s not, like controlled.
Jordan (00:31:35):
Thank you.
Lex (00:31:35):
I was like I’m hoping it’s regulated.
Jordan (00:31:37):
No, you can just it’s like in the soda machines it’s like Orange Crush, Squirt, MOAI’s.
Lex (00:31:41):
I think we’ve talked about this and how-
Jordan (00:31:44):
I will not apologize for anything.
Lex (00:31:46):
Yeah no I’m pretty sure we-
Jordan (00:31:47):
This is what I have very strong feelings about is that the mix soda is a good soda. Anyways. It is not controlled. It is regulated like other prescription meds and there are good quality well-researched generic options available. So it’s a very, it’s a very available medication. However, it does interact with a lot of other medications. So if you’re on other antidepressants, if you are taking over the counter cold medications, other things like that, you can’t take MAOI’s. They, they do bad things together. Uh it’s, it’s like the grapefruit and activated charcoal smoothie of antidepressants. Um, also, uh, alpha agonists. And I cannot pronounce the names of the specific medications, but alpha agonists can specifically target RSD and provide relief to about 1 in 3 people. The other two people apparently just get mildly sedated, which doesn’t sound too bad. I liked that Hosier song, but there are, there are medication options.
Lex (00:32:49):
Our brains went totally different.
Jordan (00:32:51):
Where did you go?
Lex (00:32:52):
Like Nirvana?
Jordan (00:32:54):
Yeah.
Lex (00:32:54):
Wait that’s Nirvana, right?
Jordan (00:32:56):
Is it? I feel like I’m from Washington. I should be, I should know that.
Lex (00:32:58):
I mean, like I also think of like motion sickness, but that’s like, I want to be like, you know, Nirvana has a verse chorus verse. Their song verse chorus verse has a line about being sedated.
Jordan (00:33:08):
Oh, okay. Gotcha.
Lex (00:33:10):
Okay. But so emotional dysregulation or did you want to talk about alpha agonists more?
Jordan (00:33:14):
Oh no. They just work. Sometimes.
Lex (00:33:17):
Medication, antidepressants, specifically SSRI’s are good for regulating emotional response in the brain. I’m not a neuroscientist, I’m not a psychiatrist or a psychologist. So I don’t know the science or really understand it. But I do know that when I take the Zoloft, I don’t cry as much.
Jordan (00:33:33):
Seconded.
Lex (00:33:34):
I recognize that medication is not an answer for a lot of people because medication is not easily accessible in this country. Um.
Jordan (00:33:40):
The system is broken.
Lex (00:33:42):
Uh, I also was able to do cognitive behavioral therapy specifically for mood regulation. And essentially medication is like the main thing that helps actually keep my emotions manageable. But if I still am having feelings that are strong or a lot, quote unquote, I have taken to some things that are healthy coping mechanisms and some things that are not as healthy. I have engaged in substance abuse because of this.
Lex (00:34:11):
I have engaged in self harm. I, on the other hand though, have journaled or taken time to make art or as my therapist helped me work through, I would literally grab a cup of ice out of like, I would have a bowl of ice in the freezer ready to just stick my hands in. And I know people hear that a lot and they rag on it a lot cause they’re like, Oh yeah, you’re just going to stick your hand in some ice. But it is a thing that works for a lot of people because it shocks your system and completely distracts your brain from whatever you’re fixating on. So yeah. Uh, the other thing that I have found really useful is having, um, worry stones or charms.
Jordan (00:34:51):
What is a worry stone?
Lex (00:34:52):
So a worry stone or a charm or something like that is just something that you physically can hold or have on your person that you can reach out for that is generally small enough that it can fit in a pocket and you play with it. And the sensory touch factor is calming. And my therapist taught me to hold my, um, we call it my charm, but my charm. And whenever I have that in my hand, I’m like only allowed to self-sooth. So I have to like, it’s almost like a programmed response at this point that if I touch that charm, I’m automatically like thinking of affirming sentences in my brain of like good things about me or about the world or about my life, or just, if I’m not able to think of anything at the very least, it’s a small, physical, smooth textured thing. And it keeps me from freaking out. So those are things that have worked for me and also journaling, painting, trying to work through whatever big feelings I’m having. Um, and then with like the positive emotions that come with feeling really big things, I have just been working really hard on letting myself feel those things and understanding that those feelings are valid and like all these feelings are valid, right?
Lex (00:36:01):
And that I am very much allowed to feel them. And so for me, self-regulation is trying to allow more space for the emotions that make me feel better and trying to make space for those negative emotions, but make space for them so that I can acknowledge them, feel them without verging into like self-harm or like a negative thought spiral. And so making space for those feelings, but regulating them, I guess. And I think that’s the main thing with self-regulation is like, it’s not, I can’t feel bad things. It’s not like I need to be happy all the time. It’s understanding and allowing for those emotions, trying to sit with them, figure out where they’re coming from and then basically soothe yourself out of those feelings or away from those feelings. I should say. You could probably also say that comedy is a coping mechanism that I’ve used for all of these things.
Jordan (00:36:50):
How’s so?
Lex (00:36:51):
Well, so like, I think we talked about it in the second episode, but I figured out very early on in life that everyone thought I was really weird and annoying a lot of the time, but if I could at least make them laugh, then I could be funny and annoying or like weird and annoying in like a palatable way.
Jordan (00:37:07):
That makes sense. That’s kind of, one of two directions people go with responding to RSD is either becoming a people pleaser to mitigate any rejection or just not trying at all and not putting yourself in situations where you could come up against that. So that’s not uncommon to use that to-
Lex (00:37:29):
Do you have any helpful tips, tricks, sweet flips about RSD?
Jordan (00:37:32):
To be honest, just knowing that it’s a thing has helped so much.
Lex (00:37:38):
Yeah. I didn’t mention that either. That’s that’s also a thing.
Jordan (00:37:40):
Just being able to say like, Oh, I recognize this thought pattern. I’ve heard someone else describe it. This is RSD. This is why I’m feeling it. I’m just going to feel through this. And it’s going to be over at some point and it’s not going to be the end of the world has been so helpful. I, I’ve noticed so many patterns of it in my life after hearing about it and being able to look back on that and go, Oh, that’s what happened there. That’s the reason that I started going to see a therapist pretty significantly was like, I feel like I have a lot of social anxiety. I feel like I have a lot of social issues. What went wrong in my childhood? Let’s figure this out. And then she was like, no, you, you have ADHD. Um, not that the other things you’re feeling aren’t valid, but yeah, all that to say, just having a word for what is going on has been super helpful and has sort of inspired me to pay more attention to the rest of my life so that when I’m having an RSD situation where I’m going, Oh, I’m a failure or, Oh, this person hates me.
Jordan (00:38:40):
I can look back and say, no, you have ADHD. So you’re setting really high standards for yourself. It’s okay if you don’t hit all of those, there’s a reason that you can’t do these things. It’s not because you’re lazy, you’re still capable or, Oh, this person doesn’t hate you. You have all of these memories and experiences of them being affirming, you know them as a person. So just being able to pay attention to that in my life, when I’m not experiencing RSD to have something, to sort of compare it to or balance it out to, or put it in better context has been super helpful. And that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t still happen, but it makes it not something that’s going to pull me under. Because like I said, when I was in college, I had a terrible time. I wanted to drop out after my first semester.
Lex (00:39:29):
I’m glad you didn’t.
Jordan (00:39:30):
I, me too, otherwise we wouldn’t have met. And you know, I had other good experiences there too, but yes, you know, I have left situations or I have not allowed myself to do things or try things because I was so afraid of what rejection might happen. I have a lot of memories of just feeling like hot garbage for no good reason. Not no good reason, but for feeling way more intensely about a situation than it actually was. Um, but now that I understand what’s happening, I can predict the wave and ride it out and move on.
Lex (00:40:04):
Yeah. And I will say being able to tell other people, I think that’s been a huge thing for me actually, is being able to be like, Hey, I have ADHD. I have trouble regulating my emotions because of emotional dysregulation. And I also not to the same extent that Jordan is describing, but I do have some similar experiences with rejection sensitive dysphoria, where I’ve been able to be like, Hey, I know that you are not trying to be unkind or reject me in any way. I know logically there’s nothing wrong here, but that does not stop the emotions from freaking the f*** out.
Jordan (00:40:35):
Yeah. If you know, like what your triggers are or what the things that specifically are likely to dysregulate you or cause rejection sensitive dysphoria, then you can be aware of that and you can prep yourself and you can make those resources and you can articulate how to communicate with you and set up your boundaries and your expectations to mitigate that in the first place, instead of having to talk yourself out of it, once it happens. And that’s, that’s another thing that I wanted to mention. Um, if you are the loved one of somebody who experiences this, and this is just a Jordanism, this is not peer reviewed. This is not a therapy thing, but I appreciate it. And I do my best to do this to other people when I’m being affirming is be aware of their love language, be aware of how they receive affection and what makes them feel not accepted. I was like, plus the opposite of rejected?
Lex (00:41:29):
Accepted.
Jordan (00:41:30):
Not re-, non rejected, dis dis rejected? I got there eventually. Um, so that it’s easier for them to understand that you don’t hate them and you’re not rejecting them. And they have more of that backlog to look back and be like, no, I have proof that this person cares about me.
Lex (00:41:47):
Well and also, uh it’s like being a friend.
Jordan (00:41:51):
Oh yeah.
Lex (00:41:52):
Like you should get to know the people that you are in any kind of relationship with and understand their love, language, understand how their brains operate. It’s like learning to communicate with others in an open and honest way.
Jordan (00:42:06):
Woah.
Lex (00:42:06):
Wild. I know that sounds probably just absolutely worthless coming from the person who was talking about how much I do not like a certain author, but that’s a different situation.
Jordan (00:42:16):
Yeah. I was going to say those aren’t the same situation at all.
Lex (00:42:18):
Yeah. I’m just saying I’m like be nice to people and be nice to kids. And I stand by that, but then I’m also like-
Jordan (00:42:24):
It’s a, it’s a careful balance of do no harm, but take no shit.
Lex (00:42:28):
Is there anything else we want to talk about in this realm?
Jordan (00:42:32):
I am gonna look at my notes because my brain is a colander, so I’m not going to trust it to remember.
Lex (00:42:37):
I just want to check before we dive, um, onto the tramp.
Jordan (00:42:41):
I don’t have no. Um, I don’t have anything else. Do you have anything else?
Lex (00:42:53):
No,.
Jordan (00:42:54):
Then let’s get to the core of this episode. You’re going to get why that’s funny in like 10 minutes. It’s not right now, but when it is, oh boy.
Lex (00:43:02):
I love how you say you’re going to get why that’s funny when I didn’t laugh.
Jordan (00:43:06):
I know, I know you, did-
Lex (00:43:08):
You think it’s funny.
Jordan (00:43:08):
-quietly in your heart behind your eyes.
Lex (00:43:10):
Deep, deep down, maybe, maybe so deep down that I didn’t even feel it.
Jordan (00:43:15):
But it was there that little flicker.
Lex (00:43:17):
Okay, sure. Jan. Um, let’s hop on over to the dopamine trampoline.
Jordan (00:43:21):
Yeah. Take us away. What is giving your brain the joy this week?
Lex (00:43:25):
Corvids.
Jordan (00:43:27):
And what are Corvids?
Lex (00:43:28):
Corvids is most commonly used to refer to the big blackbirds, like crows ravens, magpies, jackdaws, they’re all kind of in the same family and genus, but there’s like 45 different kinds of them.
Jordan (00:43:43):
Wow.
Lex (00:43:43):
Based on region and differences like beak shape and tail shape and size, but they all generally are sort of just in that realm of the big spooky birds that are in our culture anyways, associated with the spooky season that is upon us.
Jordan (00:43:58):
It sure is.
Lex (00:43:59):
And I have long loved these squawky birds. And if you know me in real life, you probably have heard at some point that I really, really, really, really eventually like one of my main life goals is that when I’m older and have a house of my own, if I could ever afford a house of my own is to have a flock of crows or ravens that hang out around and, or near my house.
Jordan (00:44:22):
That’d be rad as hell.
Jordan (00:44:23):
Right?
Lex (00:44:24):
Cause here’s the thing corvids and specifically crows are the smartest bird.
Jordan (00:44:29):
Oh yeah.
Lex (00:44:30):
And they are considered the smartest animal aside from humans and chimps.
Jordan (00:44:35):
Really?
Lex (00:44:36):
Because of behavior that we’ve seen that scientists and researchers have seen. And then also because they have an encephalization quotient equal to that of most non-human primates except chimps.
Jordan (00:44:48):
A what now?
Lex (00:44:48):
So, and I’m glad you asked an, encephalization quotient is the relative brain size to body size sort of measure that is often used to compare intelligence between species.
Jordan (00:45:00):
Okay.
Lex (00:45:01):
And corvids have-
Jordan (00:45:03):
They got big ol brains.
Lex (00:45:05):
For their little bird bodies. Yeah. I mean, there are, they’re pretty big birds too.
Jordan (00:45:08):
Yeah.
Lex (00:45:09):
So I think the most common corvid sort of fact that people know right, is that a group of crows is called a murder or a flock, but people usually think it’s a murder of crows. And a group of ravens is maybe this might be a little bit less known, but I don’t think so, because I think if you know that it’s called a murder of crows, you’re also going to know that a group of ravens is called an unkindness or a conspiracy. When we talk about crows and ravens, we think about scarecrows. We think about Halloween. We think about Hitchcock because of The Birds. And even if you’ve never seen that movie, I feel like it’s a cultural phenomenon that sort of just got passed down from like our parents and stuff who did see the movie. Um, I remember seeing The Birds when I was a small child.
Jordan (00:45:51):
I watched it in language arts because we read the novella that it’s based on, but it’s actually very different.
Lex (00:45:57):
Yeah. Or, Oh, Edgar Allen Poe.
Jordan (00:46:01):
Yeah, The Raven.
Lex (00:46:01):
A lot of mythology, a lot of cultural-
Jordan (00:46:03):
Like the Raven Queen in D&D.
Lex (00:46:05):
Which in current campaign that I’m a part of. I am playing a warlock whose patron is the Raven Queen. And so it’s been a very fun time living out all of my goth dreams, um, especially cause it’s like the curse of strahd campaign. So there’s a lot of like victorian, almost, sort of vibes, you know.
Jordan (00:46:26):
Spicy.
Lex (00:46:26):
The, goth vibe is just very strong and yeah, no, because I am playing a warlock whose patron is the Raven Queen. I have the Raven Sentinel that sits on my shoulder.
Jordan (00:46:37):
Also dope as hell.
Lex (00:46:38):
Yeah. And it’s all very fun. Very interesting. Uh, our DM-
Jordan (00:46:43):
Is very cool. If you’re listening to this Sean, we love you.
Lex (00:46:46):
As far as I know, he probably is listening to us. We do love you so much. Um, and he will be on this podcast probably this year.
Jordan (00:46:52):
At some point.
Lex (00:46:53):
So you can look forward to that, but he-
Jordan (00:46:54):
You can love Sean too.
Lex (00:46:55):
Yeah he is a professional dungeon master for, for Dungeons and Dragons. Not, not in the-
Jordan (00:47:01):
Or I mean whatever you do in your spare time.
Lex (00:47:04):
But if he is that kind of dungeon master, we don’t know about it, but he has a really cool way of like explaining the different aesthetic choices or different aesthetics of like spells and their effects and all this other stuff. And like he’s been doing like a very like howl from Howl’s Moving Castle sort of vibe with my character Tamsen. And so when I’ve cast Eldritch blast my characters arm erupts with raven feathers and then the blast comes in and then the feathers fall off slowly and then like turn into ash.
Lex (00:47:32):
And we both were like very much thinking of Howl from Howl’s Moving Castle in that like vein and it’s so it’s just so fun. Anyways, this is completely off topic other than the fact that I love crows and ravens generally corvids and I think they’re fascinating. And it’s been on my mind a lot lately because of this D&D campaign and because it’s coming up on the Halloween season and also I do have it’s worth noting. I have a tattoo on my wrist of a raven.
Jordan (00:47:58):
And what’s that ravens name?
Lex (00:47:59):
Fest. Like Fest the fool. I played Fest the fool in Twelfth night, a long time ago. And it was like one of my favorite roles I’ve ever played in a stage show. And Twelfth night is one of my favorite plays by Shakespeare. And I’m a nerd. I know, I understand. I feel like we’ve made that abundantly clear this entire time, and this is all probably horrifically on brand, but I wanted to talk about corvids because they are really fascinating in terms of how smart they are.
Lex (00:48:25):
And I’m going to talk to you about how smart they are, because they have been seen to play games like engage in like sporting activities. They make tools, they use tools. They remember things. They’re one of the few species of any kind of animal besides like chimps, humans, dolphins, elephants, bees, and ants that can translate information about things that are not immediately present.
Jordan (00:48:51):
Oh wow.
Lex (00:48:51):
So when people talk about crows remembering, crows remember human faces and they can signal to other crows. And so if you’re a bad person who did a mean thing to one crow, it is probably likely that even years later, the descendants of that crow will know who you are.
Jordan (00:49:09):
Crows hold a grudge and that’s incredible.
Lex (00:49:11):
They do, but they also can make really good friends. They will bring you gifts. If you end up being able to befriend a murder of crows, they will bring you gifts and trinkets. And they’ll just hang out a lot around your house. And then they usually crow or caw the noise that all corvids make is relatively the same. So it’s a very abrasive sounding caw.
Jordan (00:49:34):
Do you want to give us one?
Lex (00:49:35):
No, absolutely not. That would be horrible audio. And I, I did that for one session in D&D as a bit and never again. But, um.
Jordan (00:49:44):
I tried for y’all. I tried for you.
Lex (00:49:45):
You don’t, you don’t know me like that. You don’t, you don’t know me like that. Yeah. So there they have recorded corvids playing games that seem to have actual structured rules. So not just like play fighting or play hunting, like a lot of other animals engage in, but literally playing like sports, bird sports, and then they have several different types of caws and crows, depending on what they’re trying to communicate, they can remember things. It’s just really interesting.
Lex (00:50:12):
Uh, there’s a lot of people who don’t like these birds because they do often in rural areas, eat crops. And so that’s where you get scarecrows because scare tactics are apparently like one of the few things that can actually work against crows and ravens is to scare them because other forms of wildlife regulation don’t work as well and, or are not allowed in a lot of areas. There are some places where you can hunt ravens and crows, but it’s often for sport because they don’t taste good. Apparently. Um, I know Jordan’s face is really sad. It’s upsetting to me too. I think that there can be an argument made, especially when you look at indigenous ways of life, that there is a very, very much a space for killing and eating animals. Uh, but yeah, so apparently you can hunt crows and ravens and other corvids uh, Oh, I’m really just listing off fun facts that I know about crows and-
Jordan (00:51:01):
They’re very fun though.
Lex (00:51:01):
Right? Well except for-
Jordan (00:51:01):
Aside from, yeah no, that one was not fun, but like the disappointment one was.
Lex (00:51:06):
Right? So the reason that scare tactics are the most common or relied upon method is because if you’re trying to like trap them traps don’t work really well because they’re pretty smart. So they’ll be able to figure stuff out really easily.
Jordan (00:51:18):
Uh-huh. They’re just like too smart to get captured.
Lex (00:51:20):
Yeah. And I will say the sources that I was looking at in terms of like regulation and control of the amount of crows and Ravens, the sources that I found were all local to the United States. And so I’m not sure what other countries do or how other countries treat crows and ravens. They have a pretty long lifespan. Like average age is 20. The oldest one was 30 years old. They live decently long lives, which is probably part of why they are as smart as they are. And then I think the thing that is most interesting to me about corvids, besi- okay. No, the most interesting thing to me is that they can remember people and they can remember faces and they can even remember like descendants. And so it’s wild to me it’s wild to me. So-
Jordan (00:52:01):
Don’t anger a crow.
Lex (00:52:02):
Yeah. I mean, part of the reason I’m like, Oh, a life goal of mine is to befriend a murder of crows is so that I’m like, Oh, for generations, this, this murder of crows will be friends with whoever lives in this house now. And so, you know, we’ll see. But what originally drew me to my love of crows and ravens is the mythology and the storytelling around them. Um, as I mentioned, they’re, you know, often associated with spooky things, Halloween, witches, black cats, blackbirds black dogs, they’re considered in a lot of European cultures, actually in most cultures, they’re omens of some kind because they exist everywhere except South America. Um, it’s like they, well, they exist everywhere in temperate climates, except in South America. So like not everywhere, like there’s not crows in Antarctica that I know of. But, um, anywhere that there’s a temperate climate on this planet, you will find corvids except South America which is so interesting to me, they are believed to have originated in Central Asia and then spread out from there in a lot of indigenous cultures in the United States, especially in the Pacific Northwest and in the, um, plains, the crow is seen as, or as is often spoken of in storytelling as a smart or trickster sort of figure.
Lex (00:53:14):
And then, you know, you have Aesop’s Fables that talk about crows, either being really foolish or really smart or both. Ravens are credited with bringing Elijah food in the Bible. Like they, there’s really kind of, they kind of run the gamut on good to bad omens. And so I think it’s really interesting. And I know I first kind of heard more about crows in terms of Irish, Celtic, Cornish, et cetera, type of mythology because they’re a bird often related to the either goddess Morrigan in Ireland, or that translates into the same figure as Morgana in Arthurian mythos and tales, who is believed to be derived from the goddess Morgan or similar goddesses with names that begin with M around the British islands. And so they’re a bird that’s very commonly associated with her and I’ve always really had like a soft spot for Morgana.
Jordan (00:54:06):
Yeah. Who is-
Lex (00:54:07):
Morgana. Okay. So in the Arthurian mythos Morgana or Morgan Le Fay, uh, her name is really different a lot of the time, but she’s yeah, she’s a witch or sorceress, depending again, it varies so much like everything in the Arthurian canon. Cause there is Arthurian canon it’s like all over the place, but she’s essentially either so- sometimes she’s the sister of King Arthur. Sometimes she is just a random sorcerer who’s the rival of Merlin. Uh, sometimes she was, she’s considered like the ex of Merlin or even the lover of Merlin, the lover of Arthur, the sister of Arthur, like there’s a lot of options.
Jordan (00:54:45):
Okay.
Lex (00:54:46):
So it kind of just depends, but she is most commonly known, I think in American culture as Morgana and in like the Sword in the Stone, it’s like the purple witch that Merlin is a rival with. So the most common is that she’s the rival of Merlin, the wizard.
Jordan (00:54:59):
Okay.
Lex (00:54:59):
But I’ve always had a soft spot for her, especially because the mythology around women is often so warped through centuries, especially how Morgan Le Fay was warped from being a goddess to the sister of King Arthur who turned bad. And then there’s like the idea of her being like an adulterous or a seducer, you know, there’s this whole treatment that women get in history. And not to say that she is a real person or anything. Cause I don’t know. And historians don’t know, but I have always had a soft spot for women in myth or history who are not doing what they’re quote unquote supposed to be doing.
Lex (00:55:35):
And the crow and raven are very much associated with her. I mean another big one, I guess, for our younger audience, The Raven Cycle is a book series and it’s a young adult book series and they talk about the Raven King and how it’s the Welsh King, Glen Dar, who was brought over to the America’s after he died. But he was like held in sort of this limbo thing. And if you awake Lindauer, then you can get a wish granted. And there’s like a lot of mythology that changes and that’s influenced even now today by adaptations, it’s like the myth of Robin Hood. Like that’s still being impacted by different versions of the Robin Hood story that we see in the past like decade. If you couldn’t tell I’ve taken quite a few, history classes based specifically on like medieval history and literature.
Jordan (00:56:19):
I’m over here like I not actually familiar with any of stories at all, but loving hearing them from you.
Lex (00:56:27):
Yeah. Oh also Morgan who is believed to be sort of the goddess that inspired Morgan Le Fay is the goddess of war and death. So that’s why in a lot of, uh, Western European mythos and culture, ravens and crows are associated with death.
Jordan (00:56:41):
Well and that’s like in McB in the Scottish play, the crow calls, like when they kill the King.
Lex (00:56:49):
The wild variation and mythos around these birds. Cause like, Oh, I forgot to mention. So the crow is sometimes seen as like a trickster or in some Pacific Northwestern, indigenous cultures is also seen as like the creator of the entire world.
Jordan (00:57:02):
Oh wow.
Lex (00:57:02):
And so there’s just a lot of different views, right. And then an Aboriginal Australian culture, the crow is a cultural hero. Like it’s an ancestral being and also a trickster sort of figure. Um, I will say a lot of these have to do with how smart corvids are, which I think is fun. And then in Ancient Greece King Minos of Crete, he transformed a princess into a crow when she wanted gold. And then she became a bird who was attracted to shiny things and magpies are also in the corvid family. So, and then in Chinese mythology, the world originally had 10 sons that were either embodied by crows or were carried by 10 crows.
Lex (00:57:40):
So there’s that sort of same idea of like the creation of the world being from the corvid. Um, yeah, it’s in the Bible, uh, Hinduism, crows are thought of as information carriers or omens. So it’s really interesting cause I just, I think that there are so many, like there’s just so many different views of the crow, but they all kind of work together and go together in a way that I think is really neat. And I think it is interesting that crows sort of similar to pigeons kind of just go where there are people. Often, because I think there’s that symbiotic relationship of people grow crops, crows can eat the crops. People have trash that they throw out, crows can steal the trash. There’s a benefit to all of those things. And then also, uh, the reason that people don’t want to just eradicate crows completely, especially farmers. So even though they’re like considered a pest because they eat their crops, they also eat a lot of the bugs that will eat your crops. And so you don’t want to get rid of them completely, you know, just kind of that balance. And so I think there’s a really interesting relationship between corvids and humans that I really enjoy. And I just like them and also like, they’re just cool black birds.
Jordan (00:58:46):
They’re very cool looking. I just learned so much about birds. Thank you, Lex.
Lex (00:58:50):
Yeah, that was so long. That was a true hyper fixation coming to light. Huh?
Jordan (00:58:54):
It was beautiful.
Lex (00:58:55):
Thank you. What about you?
Jordan (00:58:57):
Well, I feel like corvids are mine now, too. That was like really cool. I do have a, a different dopamine trampoline item for us today and we’re going to go in a wildly different direction.
Lex (00:59:07):
Well, not too different.
Jordan (00:59:08):
I’m gonna tell you guys about a little project, uh, that the MIT media lab worked on.
Lex (00:59:15):
Are we going to get to the reason that you made that really stupid joke soon?
Jordan (00:59:19):
Yes we are.
Lex (00:59:19):
Okay.
Jordan (00:59:19):
We are.
Lex (00:59:20):
I just wanted to like call back to that so that you all know to buckle up.
Jordan (00:59:25):
It’s coming, it’s coming. We’ll get there. We’re, we’re easing into it. We’re, we’re on our toe into this, this internet mystery pool. Uh, so in, in 2013, a project called Pantheon, which was run by the MIT media lab, collected a bunch of data from Wikipedia specifically in this case as part of a project to quantify, analyze, measure and visualize global culture. So what they did was rank people by their Wikipedia presence, largely the number of translations of their Wikipedia page, how accessible that information was across the world.
Lex (01:00:03):
So the idea is that the more languages that a person’s Wikipedia page has been translated into, that’s a direct correlation to how popular they are, because-
Jordan (01:00:12):
Correct.
Lex (01:00:12):
They are known in the most places in most languages around the world.
Jordan (01:00:17):
That’s correct.
Lex (01:00:17):
Supposedly.
Jordan (01:00:18):
That’s correct.
Lex (01:00:18):
Allegedly. Allegedly.
Jordan (01:00:20):
Yes.
Lex (01:00:21):
Okay. Okay.
Jordan (01:00:21):
That’s what they’re, that’s what they’re looking at. That’s what they were assuming. That’s what they were tracking awareness through. And number one was our boy Jesus Christ at 214 languages.
Lex (01:00:33):
Okay.
Jordan (01:00:33):
Number two was our boy Barack Obama coming in with a really round thirty, flirty and thriving 200 languages, even. Uh some more people in the top 10 were Confucius, Isaac Newton, Einstein, Aristotle, you know, folks with a-
Lex (01:00:52):
Wide ranging cultural impact?
Jordan (01:00:54):
Yes. There were two alive people in the top five. One of them, as I said was Barack Obama. Can you guess who the other one was?
Lex (01:01:03):
I mean, I know who it is, but I’m really excited for the audience to hear who it is, but I also am like, you just got to wait. You just got to wait for Jordan. So who was number three Jordan?
Jordan (01:01:13):
Number three is supporting High School Musical cast member Corbin Bleu. Corbin Bleu. Corbin Bleu is the third, most translated Wikipedia page or was as of 2013, um, at 193 languages. Corbin Bleu’s Wikipedia page is available in 193 different languages. So that’s more than Confucius. Isaac Newton, Mozart, Leonardo da Vinci, Albert Einstein. Um, the next, yeah, we’ll sit on that one for a second. Ooh. The next highest living person I believe is on this list was Lady Gaga. And she was at number 30.
Lex (01:02:14):
So like Corbin Bleu is the last living person on this list until we get to Lady Gaga.
Jordan (01:02:18):
Yes. And for a little bit, for another comparison, Zac Efron only is translated into 66 languages, which is barely a third as many as Corbin Bleu and Vanessa Anne Hudgens’s page is only translated into 59. So you’re probably asking as I was, when I read this article, what the hell?
Lex (01:02:44):
Why?
Jordan (01:02:45):
And here’s the great thing? We don’t know. There are… we don’t know.
Lex (01:03:01):
That’s so ridiculous.
Jordan (01:03:02):
I found this out a couple months ago and I think I literally just like woke you up in the middle of the night to tell you it was like, listen to this. I need to tell you about Corbin Bleu right now.
Lex (01:03:13):
I was like, what about, what about him? And we went down this rabbit hole, there was a theory for a while that the reason was because his name is so close to Cordon Bleu, like the chicken dish that people were like translating it so that other people wouldn’t like, make that mistake. And they would know that Corbin Bleu, the actor is different than Cordon Bleu, the French chicken preparation. That didn’t hold a whole lot of water, as you can imagine. Um-
Lex (01:03:46):
Yeah, the, the really popular dish.
Jordan (01:03:50):
I mean, it’s not unpopular, I’ve had chicken Cordon Bleu, but I’m also me.
Lex (01:03:55):
Yeah.
Jordan (01:03:56):
Have you ever had chicken Cordon Bleu?
Lex (01:03:57):
No.
Jordan (01:03:58):
It’s like breaded chicken and there’s like ham in it. I think. There’s ham involved somewhere.
Lex (01:04:03):
Get your ham in the game.
Jordan (01:04:07):
And people did, or according to some very, very thorough research on a Reddit thread, one person did we, we have no proof of this. The people who are interested in figuring out this sort of thing, took a look at who was creating these Wikipedia pages-
Lex (01:04:26):
The people working on this, are they, um, would you say all in this together?
Jordan (01:04:34):
They sure are.
Lex (01:04:41):
Why didn’t you see that coming though?
Jordan (01:04:43):
I’m deep in this. I am deep in this Reddit thread. So they looked over who’s creating these pages and who was translating it. And they kind of assumed if it wasn’t some weird phenomenon like the Cordon Bleu situation, if it was one person, all of these articles would be made in a similar amount of time, but they were translated over like 10 years to a number of different IP addresses. A lot of them were from Germany and a lot of them were from Saudi Arabia and it took a lot more digging until they found the one person who was probably likely who was just using multiple accounts and IP addresses.
Jordan (01:05:24):
Although there’s still parts of this, that doesn’t connect because they theorize that it was likely Wikipedia user Zimmer610, AKA Chance Watson. We weren’t sure whether they were from Leipzig, Germany, which was one of the main IP addresses or an area of Saudi Arabia. They’ve apparently gotten into a lot of trouble with the Wikipedia authorities in terms of like unauthorized or incorrect article creation or addendum. Um.
Lex (01:05:52):
Okay. Okay.
Jordan (01:05:54):
Interestingly, like a lot of the pages are not completely translated. It’s not the full article. It’s just like, this is an article about Corbin Bleu. It has his name and information like biological birthday, things like that. And not a lot else. And specifically the Chinese and Korean translations are pretty rudimentary and were probably done by an online translator website. Interestingly though, there are a lot of dead languages that this article is translated into.
Lex (01:06:25):
Such as?
Jordan (01:06:28):
Um, Nahuatl, which is an Aztec language, Old English and, uh, Pennsylvania Dutch. So the Pennsylvania Dutch know about Corbin Bleu now. Uh, so it looks like some of these were translated by one person with an online translator, but some of them were just translated by this person who apparently is also very good at languages.
Lex (01:06:51):
Does Mr. Bleu know about this?
Jordan (01:06:54):
He does. There’s a Buzzfeed article that came out shortly after this Pantheon study was published and Corbin Bleu’s quote was “What? Holy s***. Really? I wonder why that is.” He then went on to say, “what the hell that’s amazing, that’s ridiculous, actually, that is unnecessary, but I will definitely put that on my resume.”
Lex (01:07:23):
Oh my word. You know? Okay. So here’s, here’s the thing.
Jordan (01:07:27):
Tell me the thing.
Lex (01:07:28):
Here’s the thing about Corbin Bleu.
Jordan (01:07:30):
What’s the thing about Corbin Bleu?
Lex (01:07:31):
I know that Corbin Bleu was in all of the High School Musical franchise movies. I know this, but when I think about Corbin Bleu, I think about-
Jordan (01:07:40):
The jumping rope movie?
Lex (01:07:41):
No, um, I did often sing Push It to the Limit to piss my friends off in middle school.
Jordan (01:07:49):
Well your friends had bad taste then that song slaps.
Lex (01:07:51):
Well I mean like it slaps, but like I would literally just be like, push it, push it to the limit, limit cause we’re in it to win it, in it and like just come on. So I would want to kick me in the shins too.
Jordan (01:08:05):
Okay.
Lex (01:08:05):
Um, but I thought it was hilarious though. Yeah. The more I reveal on this podcast about my childhood, the more I’m like, how did no one know? Um, but when I think about Corbin Bleu, my first, first, first thought is the episode of Hannah Montana, where he is a fellow high schooler of Miley, you know, Hannah Montana, when she’s a normal person.
Jordan (01:08:29):
Not Hannah, not Montana.
Lex (01:08:31):
And she gets distracted staring at him cause he’s like, supposedly, you know, and he is, he’s an attractive person. Um, but like, everyone’s like, Oh my gosh, he’s so hot. And she gets distracted while pumping ketchup for like her fries or something at lunch. And then she pumps ketchup on her hands on accident. Like she just pumps it and it’s like on her hand. And then he’s like, you have ketchup on your hands. And then she’s like, Oh, it’s um, lotion. It’s like lotion it’s really moisturizing. So she like lathers his hands in ketchup. And then after he wipes like, wow, they’re really soft. And like, that’s, that’s not verbatim. That’s not the correct quote. But if you know about that scene, you know, you know exactly what I’m talking about.
Jordan (01:09:10):
Does it work though? Has anyone ever tried? Ketchup lotion.
Lex (01:09:14):
I don’t know.
Jordan (01:09:15):
Now I wanna know.
Lex (01:09:16):
I don’t. I don’t think so. Cause it’s like water, sugar, tomatoes. Like one of those things is acidic.
Jordan (01:09:22):
But maybe, maybe that’s like micro exfoliating, I don’t know. There’s like tomato in some face soap and stuff. Isn’t there?
Lex (01:09:29):
Yeah. But I think like just tomato paste, that’s dunked in sugar, especially out of like the kind that has so many preservatives in it that you can pump it out of a bi-. Like, no, I don’t think that would be moisturizing.
Jordan (01:09:41):
Well, maybe the sugar is like a scrub and then like the water hydrates and-
Lex (01:09:46):
I don’t know. Maybe we can ask Corbin. I don’t know, but that’s all I that’s my first thought. And then, you know, I’ll be like, oh right, Chad.
Jordan (01:09:54):
Oh, see, my first thought is this Wikipedia debacle. And my second thought was Chad. Now my third thought is going to be-
Lex (01:10:00):
Ketchup hands?
Jordan (01:10:00):
Ketchup hands. But it’s my first thought is-
Lex (01:10:04):
Chad Ketchup Hands. It’s my favorite movie from Johnny Depp’s repertoire.
Jordan (01:10:12):
Oh Lordy. So we know that in 2013, Corbin Bleu had the third most Wikipedia translations out of anyone. And the second most out of any living person. We are pretty sure that all of these pages were done by one person from Saudi Arabia over the course of about 10 years. What we don’t know and may never know is why.
Lex (01:10:41):
So this is, this is all very fascinating, but uh, Jordan.
Jordan (01:10:46):
Lex.
Lex (01:10:47):
Why, why is this your dopamine trampoline?
Jordan (01:10:51):
It’s just fascinating to me. I can never, I can’t. It’s the why. It’s the why that gets me because-
Lex (01:10:58):
Where are the white women with a true crime investigative podcast about this? That’s what I want to know.
Jordan (01:11:02):
That will be our spinoff after this.
Lex (01:11:03):
Okay.
Jordan (01:11:05):
But like that’s the thing is this project took 10 years. This person clearly has the skills to do some internet hacking type stuff to get IP addresses all over the world. Clearly knows multiple languages is very fluent in Arabic because the Arabic Corbin Bleu article is the most extensive out of all of them, has a lot of time to invest in this because they were uploaded over the course of 10 years. Like I think I said, but we don’t know why we’ve never heard from this person. We just found their username through looking at the by- say, I, we, I mean the wonderful people on Reddit unsolved mysteries by like, going through all of the Wikipedia edit data, but we don’t know why we’ve never heard from this person. It doesn’t make sense. Even if you’re madly in love and obsessed with Corbin Bleu, like why is this the thing you would do for him?
Lex (01:12:03):
You know, legacy.
Jordan (01:12:04):
Legacy.
Lex (01:12:04):
What is a legacy?
Jordan (01:12:05):
It’s planting Corbin’s in a Wikipedia you were never meant to see. I think that’s where we should end it for today.
Lex (01:12:15):
Yeah. Um. Thank you all so much for joining this rollercoaster of an episode.
Jordan (01:12:22):
The feelings episode did end up being about feelings. So if you made it to the end of this and are listening to it now, sorry.
Lex (01:12:29):
I’m not.
Jordan (01:12:31):
No but for real, thank you so much for listening. Hopefully this has been helpful to understanding if you feel this way or if you have a loved one who feels this way. If you follow us on the internet and have more thoughts about this, please reach out, shoot us a tweet. Shoot us an email. If you have more questions, if you wildly disagree, if you have very strong feelings about this, let us know. Like we said, this is an ongoing conversation we’re still learning a lot and we’d love to keep it going.
Lex (01:13:01):
Yeah I’ve gotten some really nice messages from some of y’all. And I just want to say, thanks. Thanks for listening to us. Thanks for letting us chat to you about a plethora of things.
Jordan (01:13:10):
This has been Or, Learn Parkour from Wholehearted Production Co.
Lex (01:13:15):
You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, most other places cool people listen to podcasts.
Jordan (01:13:20):
Special thanks to Krizia Perito for our cover art design. You can find her at Petal Hop. That’s P E T A L H O P on Instagram and Etsy and Twitter.
Lex (01:13:30):
And thank you to Tom Rosenthal for our theme song, “There is a Dark Place” off of his album “Keep a Private Room Behind the Shop.”
Jordan (01:13:36):
Which continues to slap, which continues to smack ass. You can follow us on the social media. We are @orlearnparkour on Twitter. We are  @wearewpc on Instagram and also you can check out our website, which is wearewpc.com.
Lex (01:13:52):
Yeah and you will find links to those in our episode description, as well as links to our sources, transcript music, et cetera.
Jordan (01:13:59):
All the things you can usually find there. If you enjoy this podcast and we hope you do if you’ve listened to all the way to the end of this episode, and you want to hear our next episodes, please subscribe to this feed. Please follow us and click that download button. We really appreciate it.
Lex (01:14:13):
Uh, you can also show support to us by sharing the show with your friends and maybe family. If your-
Jordan (01:14:19):
If your family’s real cool.
Lex (01:14:20):
If your family is real chill about a lot of stuff you can share us with them, um, yeah. Leave us a review on iTunes, support us on Ko-Fi. Uh, the link to that is in our Twitter bio. Yeah. I think that’s all we got for you. I guess the other thing we wanted to say is just-
Jordan (01:14:36):
Times are tough right now.
Lex (01:14:38):
Yeah.
Jordan (01:14:38):
In a lot of ways and a lot of places for a lot of people.
Lex (01:14:42):
And I don’t think anyone is saying that things weren’t bad before. Right. And it’s not like this is a new thing. It’s just that there’s a, there’s a lot of it that is new.
Jordan (01:14:51):
Yeah.
Lex (01:14:52):
And there’s a lot of it that has been predicted and people have known that it would happen. And it’s a, it’s a rough time and we are barely scratching the surface of the mental health impacts of things going on, let alone the everything else and how that’s impacting us. Um, so just, you know, take care of yourself, take care of your friends and your family, take care of people.
Jordan (01:15:13):
Yeah.
Lex (01:15:14):
That being said, I don’t really want to end this episode on like a-
Jordan (01:15:18):
Total bummer?
Lex (01:15:19):
On a total bummer.
Jordan (01:15:21):
So we don’t end on a complete and total bummer. I do have an outro question for you.
Lex (01:15:26):
Ooo.
Jordan (01:15:26):
We know a group of crows is called a murder and a group of ravens is an unkindness. What would you call a group of you’s? A group of Lex’s.
Lex (01:15:35):
An auto dealership. Um, uh.
Jordan (01:15:41):
You won. You on the question. Let’s end the episode now.
Lex (01:15:43):
Okay.
Jordan (01:15:44):
I’m Jordan.
Lex (01:15:45):
And I’m Lex.
Jordan (01:15:45):
And this has been Or, Learn Parkour. We’ll see you in two weeks.
Lex (01:15:48):
Bye everybody.
(01:16:21):
[Outro Music: There Is A Dark Place by Tom Rosenthal].

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