[Intro audio: “There is a Dark Place,” by Tom Rosenthal]
Jordan (00:29):
I was ready.
Lex:
He is not one of us. Deception, disgrace. Evil as plain as the scar on his face. Deception and outrage. For shame. For shame.
Jordan:
Hi, I’m Jordan.
Lex (00:56):
And I’m Lex.
Jordan:
And this is Or, Learn Parkour.
Lex:
Hello, I’m Lex. I think I started laughing before I got my full name out. It’s one syllable, which is pretty par for the course, for me, I’d say.
Jordan:
Welcome to the show, Lex.
Lex:
Yeah, I got ADHD. I heard this was a podcast about it and I’m here, baby.
Jordan:
It sure is. You are in the right place. You need no other qualifications to be there, which is good because we have none.
Lex:
We have no, absolutely no qualifications. We don’t even have driver’s licenses. We’re not even people. We’re just out in the ether.
Jordan:
I’m 17. I just look old enough to go to bars.
Lex:
I’m completely illiterate.
Jordan (01:43):
You’re a litterer? That’s disrespectful.
Lex:
Did you see my tweet earlier?
Jordan:
Yeah, I did. For everyone who’s listening to this. Go look at Lex’s tweet from earlier.
Lex:
I’ll just tell y’all the story. You don’t need to go look at my Twitter. I’ll tell you. I was driving behind somebody. I live in Chicago. We live in Chicago. This is a podcast about ADHD. We live in Chicago. It’s a place to be.
Jordan:
Some might say the place to be.
Lex:
Some.
Jordan:
I don’t know who those people are.
Lex:
I don’t know them. It’s not us, but some people might. Yeah. And this is also a podcast about ADHD. It’s called Or, Learn Parkour. I’m Lex, it’s shortened. We talk about ADHD 60% of the time.
Jordan:
60 to 70.
Lex:
Somewhere in there.
Jordan:
It depends on your definition of talking about ADHD.
Lex:
Yeah. In an educational manner, probably bump that right down to a 40.
Jordan:
Talking about our lives with ADHD.
Lex (02:38):
Maybe up to 90. Yeah. I suppose it’s a sliding scale. But we live in Chicago and it’s a place where people live and it’s a time and I was driving today on my way home from work. And the car in front of me had lots of bumper stickers. I’d say 80% of which I agreed with.
Jordan:
I thought you were going to say 80 bumper stickers. And I was like, what?
Lex:
No. I mean, they definitely had in the 20 to 30 range. Yeah, no, a lot. I definitely saw a lot. At least two coexist stickers. And then one that’s the same sort of font idea, but this is equality. Do you know what I’m talking about? They had both of those. There was an RBG, you know, liberal things. And don’t get it twisted, this is not me being like, people on the left are so cringey. ‘Cause, no, if you think I’m conservative, honey, no, no.
Jordan:
If this is the first episode you’re listening to, that is not the case.
Lex:
Yeah. What I’ll say, one of the main things that can kind of point to where I lie on the political scale is if you go far enough left, you get your guns back. So, we live in Chicago and I’m driving behind this person with all these bumper stickers. And I’m like, okay, that’s a lot of bumper stickers, but at the same time, it’s giving me something to do to pass the time because traffic is sometimes tedious, we’ll say. And so I’m looking at this person with all of their very open-minded, liberal-
Jordan:
Protect the earth.
Lex:
Yeah. Very sort of crunchy bumper stickers, but not as far as having, I don’t know, say, circle one, not that far left stickers. So, it’s just right in that thing, right?
Jordan:
We’re not quite pitching defunding. We’re not out here for reparations quite yet.
Lex:
Yeah, yeah. No, it’s you know, yeah.
Jordan:
Crunchy but still sweetened.
Lex:
I don’t want to say, that sounds like you can’t have sugar or sweetener when you go far enough left and that’s false also.
Jordan (04:59):
Yeah, fuck you and your granola.
Lex:
Yeah. I don’t know. We are angry at two very different things, I think. We can talk about what granola did to hurt you in a second. So, I’m looking behind this car, right? I’m driving, looking at the bumper stickers and the driver’s window slides down and all of a sudden, just a giant plastic bag of trash, not a giant garbage bag, but like the big ones from Target. They just dumped it out on Ashland. It just spewed trash everywhere. They very intentionally stuck that bag out of the window with their arm and just dropped it. Yeah. Just full on, grip it and rip it. Let me just litter everywhere.
Jordan:
Big yikes for me on that one, Lex.
Lex:
Yeah. So, I don’t really know what their deal was, but it did seem pretty accurate too, in terms of speaking metaphorically to our government right now. But how about granola? What did it do to you?
Jordan (06:04):
I would like to apologize for my statements on granola earlier. Heat of the moment. Granola did not deserve that. I respect all types of granola.
Lex (06:17):
I have granola friends.
Jordan (06:20):
Stop being funnier than me.
Lex (06:26):
Making me laugh too hard. Well, making myself laugh too hard. [Inaudible]
Jordan (06:32):
But I appreciate you trying to share the credit.
Lex (06:34):
This is one of the many drawbacks I might have if I start streaming. I laugh at my own jokes and the things I say all the time. And I do not care if other people are not laughing with me.
Jordan (06:48):
I remember when we first moved in together, you were like, just so you know, don’t get offended. Don’t let it hurt your feelings. I just don’t laugh out loud that often.
Lex (06:59):
Yeah. Except for my own jokes. ‘Cause I’m a piece of shit. My apologies for derailing the trail of granola. But you were apologizing to granola, so that’s where we’re at. What’s this episode about?
Jordan (07:21):
Depression.
Lex (07:23):
Oh. Okay. So, we’re pretty off track already. Okay. All right.
Jordan (07:28):
Actually, this is a very seasonally relevant episode. We’re recording on the second, which is a Tuesday, but y’all will be hearing this episode on Monday, right after daylight savings. Yup. So, we are actually talking about, specifically, seasonal depression. And the reason that we are talking about this, even though this is not technically a seasonal depression podcast, it’s 50% a seasonal depression podcast, because guess who has it. I do.
Lex (07:58):
It’s a hundred percent. ‘Cause we both have the lights.
Jordan (08:01):
That’s true.
Lex (08:03):
You’re just better at actively working against your seasonal depression. And I was on depression meds before you were.
Jordan (08:11):
That’s true. Yeah. No, seasonal depression, or seasonal affective disorder as it is officially known, was my first diagnosis.
Lex:
Yeah. I remember that.
Jordan:
Yeah. When I was in college. It was the fall of my junior year, which was the first year I moved away from home. Sucked. It was great, don’t get me wrong. There’s a lot of fun things about college. A lot of cool people, a lot of cool stuff. I was so sad. So, I went, I don’t want to do that again. And when it started getting fall, my senior year, I said, I’m going to go find a therapist. And luckily all the therapists on campus were conveniently condensed into one room. So, I just had to find the room. And then it was pretty easy to find a therapist from there on out. What?
Lex (08:55):
Why were they all in one room?
Jordan:
One building.
Lex:
Oh yeah. You gathered them all in this, they’re all here. Just in time for the therapera ceremony.
Jordan:
Therapera ceremony?
Lex:
I was trying to, therapy and ceremony, but it’s serapy or theramony. So, that’s why I was like, we went to the same counseling services and they were never all in one room together. What did you do to the therapists at the University of Idaho? What did you do? What did you do to them?
Jordan:
Nothing that couldn’t be undone. I promise. I meant to say building. They were all in one building.
Lex:
That makes a lot more sense. I think I do like this sort of dark side Jordan. Who’s apparently summoning therapists into a room.
Jordan:
The therapist wrangler.
Lex:
Yeah. Just trot ‘em along out in the old west. ‘Cause there ain’t enough room in town for any therapist. Got to get them all in one room. That is not our official statement on therapists, just to clarify, we both do like some good therapy.
Jordan
Yeah. Big fan, big fan.
Lex:
Big fan. I recognize it’s not for everyone, but for us. Great.
Jordan (10:21):
Good time. We know that in this house we stand Margaret.
Lex (10:23):
Yes, of course we do. We always stand Margaret. But, so you went, you summoned some therapists and they all conveniently arrived in that pentagram that you’d created. You made sure you had all your salt lined up so none of them could get out and you found one.
Jordan:
It was actually just crushed up Zoloft.
Lex:
If you had crushed up Zoloft, you wouldn’t have needed to go to the therapists in the first place. Not to say that meds are a substitute for therapy. I’m just saying, for the bit, okay. Couldn’t even enjoy that bit ‘cause I could already feel the criticism. So, what’d you do then, masochist? No, sadist. That’s when you do it to other people. I always get those confused. A masochist likes to be hurt and likes to suffer. A sadist likes to hurt others. And if you’re summoning all the therapists into a pentagram to conduct dark seasonal depression rituals, I’d go so far to say-
Jordan:
That’s sadism?
Lex:
Yeah. You’re making other people suffer and probably enjoying it.
Jordan:
I was not enjoying it. I was not enjoying anything at that point in my life. If you remember, I was very depressed.
Lex:
Okay. Listen, I know. I live with you. Okay.
Jordan:
You do and I can’t thank you enough for that.
Lex:
Same. Cheers, bro. I’ll drink to that. Anyways. So, tell me more.
Jordan (11:46):
So, I got diagnosed with seasonal depression and then I moved to Chicago and I went, well, I have seasonal depression and Chicago sure can season.
Lex (11:55):
We sure do have seasons.
Jordan (11:57):
So, I found another therapist. That’s a pretty condensed version of that story. But all that to say, I found that I had seasonal depression first. I found out that I had ADHD second, and third, I found out that ADHD and seasonal affective disorder are actually comorbid.
Lex:
Comorbid?
Jordan (12:18):
Yeah.
Lex (12:19):
Cool.
Jordan:
They occur together a lot. People who have ADHD are three times as likely to have seasonal affective disorder. So, that’s why we’re talking about it today on the ADHD podcast.
Lex (12:34):
Yeah. We did also do an episode on comorbidities.
Jordan (12:37):
We sure did. You can go listen to that one. We’ll wait.
Lex (12:40):
Very basic, rudimentary, bare bones sort of explanation.
Jordan (12:43):
Oh yeah. If we haven’t mentioned it yet, we’re not doctors. We’re not therapists. We’re not mental health professionals of any kind.
Lex (12:52):
No, not in the least. Not coaches, not influencers, nothing.
Jordan (12:56):
We are not mental health or professional.
Lex (13:00):
Hey, you know why? Well, lots of reasons, but, specifically, I say the fuck word probably too many times to be considered professional anything. You know what I mean? I did look at our cats today and I said, hey, fuckos. And it was 8:00 AM.
Jordan (13:17):
And it was accurate. I’ve met our cats. That was accurate.
Lex (13:21):
Yeah. But that’s the energy I bring, I walk out of my room at 8:00 AM in the morning and I’m like, hey, fuckos. So, I wouldn’t consider myself a professional person on any capacity, even though I have a master’s degree. Yeah. But it’s in anthropology. So, let’s just.
Jordan (13:37):
That’s studying people.
Lex (13:38):
Yeah. But not in a way that gives me any authority or smarts that make me more or less than any other person. But we do know how to use computers. And we do know how to draw from our own lived experiences.
Jordan (13:54):
This is true, but you know who is smart and scientific and professional?
Lex:
Who?
Jordan:
That would be the National Institute of Mental Health, where I pulled this definition of seasonal affective disorder from. All right, folks, we are all aboard the train to the education station right now. Buckle up, strap in, whatever you need to do.
Lex (14:14):
Anything off the trolley, dears? We’ll take the lot. Greedy little fuckers, taking all of the candy off the trolley.
Jordan (14:25):
That is a little rude, when you think about it, I never thought about it like that.
Lex (14:27):
I recognize where he is coming from. Very dark place that I don’t wish upon any human, but yeah. Hey, buddy, you just took all of the candy and sweets and food from the rest of the train full of other people that you’re about to go to school with for seven years.
Jordan (14:47):
They’re gonna be like, oh, you’re the candy stealing freak.
Lex (14:50):
Yeah. And then they’re going to be like.
Jordan (14:52):
The hell’s wrong with you?
Lex (14:53):
Yeah. No wonder they all bully him so much. No, they all bully him so much ‘cause the author who wrote him is a turf. So, anyways, tell me about more of this education station stuff, because I am not going to be that dick who buys all the candy on this trolley and I’m ready.
Jordan (15:16):
All right, so, official definition, so we’re all starting from the same page here, seasonal affective disorder is a type of depression characterized by its recurrent seasonal pattern with symptoms lasting usually about four to five months out of the year.
Lex (15:31):
Yeah. I guess it’s sort of dependent on where you live.
Jordan (15:34):
Yeah. And there is -seasonal depression or seasonal affective disorder, we’re going to use those interchangeably, is generally, I believe, much more common in the winter- but there is a summer version as well. Some people get summer depression. Yeah.
Lex (15:49):
Yeah, and I’m also just thinking about the way the planet experiences sunlight and seasons.
Jordan:
That’s also a good point, yeah.
Lex:
So, if I look at somebody who lives near the equator, they probably have less months of seasonal depression in their little calendar of sadness.
Jordan (16:03):
I wish that were me, but I moved to Chicago instead. Anyways. So, the signs and symptoms of seasonal affective disorder would then include those associated with major depression and some specific symptoms differ for winter and summer pattern seasonal affective disorder. So, those symptoms may include, some of these might sound familiar if you’ve listened to our other episodes about ADHD symptoms, but feeling depressed most of the day, nearly every day, feelings of guilt and hopelessness, losing interest in activities you once enjoyed, experiencing changes in appetite or weight, having problems with sleep, feeling sluggish, feeling agitated, having low energy, feeling hopeless, feeling worthless, having difficulty concentrating, oversleeping or problems sleeping in general, overeating, particularly with a craving for carbohydrates, and social withdrawal and increased sensitivity to rejection.
Lex (17:05):
Okay, cool. Yeah. That’s a sad bummer list. Good thing we both feel like that a lot. So, here’s a question for ya, oh great education station conductor, what’s the difference, and this is just for the audience because obviously I know, obviously, but what’s the difference between seasonal depression and regular depression? ‘Cause they sound the same.
Jordan (17:30):
So, same symptoms, different times and lengths of time they occur. Seasonal depression has, like I mentioned earlier, a seasonal pattern, whether it’s summer or winter happening on the same part of the year, every year, whereas general garden variety, run of the mill, store-brand major depressive disorder is not bound to those sort of parameters. It can sneak up on you at any time of the year.
Lex (18:03):
Yeah. So, I guess a better question would be what is the reason for that?
Jordan (18:09):
That’s a great question.
Lex (18:11):
Yeah, I think that’s what I’m asking. Yes, the seasonal one is seasonal. Thank you.
Jordan (18:17):
That is the question you asked me.
Lex (18:19):
Well, but what’s the difference? And so the difference is what causes them.
Jordan (18:24):
Yes, that is a good question. So, both expressions of depression are due to chemical imbalances in the brain. Natch. But seasonal depression, and then this is something we’ll learn later, they’re still investigating the mechanisms involved here, but is largely due to, especially in winter depression, the lack of sunlight and the way that that changes your circadian rhythms, creates more melatonin in your brain and kind of throws you off. Kind of messes up that whole sleep wake system. And it’s a bad time.
Lex (19:05):
I’d imagine then that when it’s in summer, it’s the opposite of it’s sunny for most of the day. Have fun. And your brain is like, everything is a nightmare from Midsommer and I’m dying.
Jordan (19:19):
Probably. Yeah. I do not experience summer seasonal depression, but if somebody in the audience does, let us know.
Lex (19:27):
Yeah. As someone with major depressive disorder and seasonal affective disorder, I can say that summer depression sucks butts.
Jordan (19:37):
Oh, I’ve been depressed in the summer, I just haven’t been depressed because of the summer.
Lex (19:41):
No, I guess that’s fair. But you asked if there was anyone in the audience who gets depressed from- sometimes it’s too much. I think for me anyways, when I’m feeling depressed in the summer, when I’m just, generally, the thing about summer that can sometimes be a little overwhelming and disheartening for me is the pressure to go do things and be social and go outside and enjoy the nice weather while you can, especially in Chicago when we get a month of nice weather. So, there’s that pressure. And then you just kind of get down on yourself and it kind of just builds up from there. But again, my seasonal affective disorder is also pretty tied to late winter.
Jordan (20:24):
That is what the resources from the National Mental Health Association says, is that by and large, the most difficult months for people who have it are January and February.
Lex:
That tracks.
Jordan:
And younger persons and people who are assigned female at birth are both at higher risk. Yeah.
Lex (20:48):
Well, as someone who’s under 30 and AFAB, bummer, Someone go put me in a yellow room. That’ll fix me up.
Jordan (20:54):
Please don’t. We’re in a pink room.
Lex (20:57):
We got more pink panels up.
Jordan (21:00):
Yeah. They’re very cute. And very squishy. This is also the time that I just want to note for people who might not be as familiar with depression or seasonal affective disorder. There is a difference between seasonal affective disorder and the quote unquote, winter blues. I mean, there are a ton of studies out there on the effect of sunlight on people. And that is usually positive in a mental health context. So, yes, the seasons changing are going to affect most people to some degree. There’s also an amount of pressure and emotional draw, emotional drain around winter holidays, a lot of things going on, but just depression is a different thing from just being sad. So is seasonal depression. But to put a caveat on my caveat, like we say, with ADHD, whether you have a diagnosis or not, if a tool that we are talking about works for you, use it.
Lex (22:08):
Yeah. Again, we’re not experts. So, take the tips with a grain of salt, but take them. Yep. Well, thanks. You always bring such good emotional gravitas when you’re talking about education station stuff and you can really hear and feel the empathy, right? And as someone who lives with you and loves you very much, yeah, you just always are like that. But then I’m like, well, we’re making a podcast and this is such a bummer, downer. Like, okay, let’s go back to being funny.
Jordan (22:41):
I’m glad that you’re here.
Lex (22:43):
No, don’t be depressed. You’re so funny.
Jordan (22:47):
That’s why I appreciate having you on the other side of the mic with me, so that you can kind of bring us back to the not depressing zone. You can ask those questions that other people are asking while I’m just like, here’s the thing I read. I did all this research. I read all these papers yesterday. I’m just going to quote it to you. Does that make sense? And it doesn’t make any sense at all.
Lex:
But it does.
Jordan (23:05):
Thank you for being honest.
Lex:
I maintain now and forever that I was born in the wrong time, because I think ideally I would be a really good court jester. Just bounce ideas off me. Good or bad. I’m here. Ready to bring the mood back up.
Jordan (23:20):
Amazing. I’m going to actually bring the mood back down though, if that’s all right, because I have more science. Is that cool?
Lex (23:27):
I mean, science doesn’t automatically bring it down. Try to deliver it to me nice. You know what I mean? Give me a Mary Poppins sort of a spoonful of sugar with it. We talk about sad things in a really happy way. Like serial killers do. You know? It’s fine. There is no war in [inaudible]
Jordan (23:50):
There was this study done in 2016.
Lex (23:54):
Great year, banner year.
Jordan (23:58):
Now it’s sad again.
Lex (24:01):
I did that. I’ll own up to it.
Jordan (24:03):
Rest in peace, Carrie Fisher. But there was a paper put out in 2016 called ADHD, Circadian Rhythms and Seasonality by Wynchank et al. Bless you.
Lex (24:16):
Another seasonal problem is allergies. Well, that has nothing to do with the ADHD.
Jordan:
It might, who knows.
Lex (24:27):
Maybe. I have ADHD and I sneeze like 17 times a day. Somebody help me. That’s my research proposal.
Jordan (24:33):
Did you know that’s a symptom of ADHD?
Lex (24:36):
Okay. It is really irritating that sometimes people are just like, yeah, so I have this recurring dream that I murder my own mom and that’s because I have ADHD. No, I don’t think so. Not to [inaudible] we aren’t experts.
Jordan (24:53):
We’re not. But I’m also not an expert in dreaming about murdering my mom.
Lex (25:01):
Yeah, no, I would hope not, but also just generally, don’t have to be an expert to know that, hey, that’s not connected at all.
Jordan (25:10):
I was going to say correlation does not imply causation, which is one of my favorite phrases. But there’s not even really correlation there.
Lex (25:16):
Yeah, no, I’m not saying somebody said this, but we’ve seen people say some shit. And so we like to keep relatively, I’m not going to say positive environment here, a relatively environment. Yep. It sure is.
Lex (25:35):
So, this paper, published in 2016, credit to Wynchank et al. This was one of the bigger studies done investigating if there was a link between ADHD and seasonal depression, if there were overlap in causes, what exactly the relationship was and the impact that ADHD could potentially have on experiencing seasonal affective disorder and vice versa. And I’m referencing this paper because it’s one of the most recent, it’s also kind of a summary of a lot of research that came before it.
Lex (26:09):
Yeah, and I mean, from the summary that you gave, that’s the podcast episode today. So, hit me.
Jordan (26:15):
And we will share a link to this in our show notes as always so that you can check it out if you would like to. They found a couple of interesting things. One, as we mentioned earlier, people with ADHD are three times more likely to have clinically significant seasonal affective disorder. They also found that seasonal depressive symptoms are significantly increased in people with ADHD, independent of pre-existing depression or anxiety. Yup. And I thought this was super interesting. It’s a little jargony, so bear with me. But they were looking at the relationship between ADHD and seasonal affective disorder, sort of the missing piece there is delayed sleep phase disorder, which I know we’ve talked about a bit before. We had our episode on sleep. It’s very common in people with ADHD. And so they were looking at specifically how that delayed sleep phase element affects how people experience seasonal affective disorder. And they found an actual measurable number of your symptoms get a specific amount more intense for every hour you go to sleep later.
Lex (27:26):
Hey, scientists from this study.
Jordan:
You’re being real loud.
Lex:
You’re being really rude. Shut up.
Jordan (27:35):
Yeah. For those of you who care about the jargon, they were measuring seasonal symptoms with the GSS score, which measures seasonal change in symptoms. And they discovered that a sleep onset time that was one hour later resulted in an increase of .26 points. And I believe it’s a scale out of 24, but if you’re doing that consistently, you know, for your whole life, if you have ADHD and delayed sleep phase disorder that might end up being significant.
Lex (28:06):
I might have some buildup. Might need to deal with that later.
Jordan (28:10):
That’s a problem.
Lex (28:11):
For some other time, I guess.
Jordan (28:13):
Some other 2:00 AM. Yup. So, all that to say, there’s still a fair amount of research to do. You know, because as we’ve talked about, we don’t exactly know all of the mechanisms that cause and/or contribute to ADHD, but they did discover sort of a snake eating its own tail relationship between these things where the delayed sleep phase can happen because of ADHD. And then you don’t get enough sleep and that makes your ADHD symptoms worse. But also that delayed sleep phase can be exacerbated by, you know, that’s a symptom. It can be exacerbated by doing. And then if you’re waking up later, after daylight savings time, you’re missing out on morning sun, that’s going to lead to shorter exposure to sunlight in the day and then increased exposure to artificial light at night, if you’re going to bed later, which continues the cycle of sleep disturbance, which we know is not great.
Lex (29:12):
That’s a real bummer. It makes me want to go to sleep now. It’s what? 9:00 PM. I’m like, okay.
Jordan (29:20):
It’s 9:30. It’s getting late.
Lex (29:24):
Night night. I gotta go or else my brain gonna be worse tomorrow.
Jordan (29:28):
We have some things we can do. It’s not all bad news.
Lex (29:30):
Okay. I don’t know if I trust you. I’ve been burned so many times.
Jordan (29:34):
I know, me too.
Lex (29:37):
All right, well give me the good news then, doc. Not an actual doctor. To clarify. One more time. Just in case you have some random person who’s listening in, halfway through the episode while you’re listening and they’re like, doc? Are these medical doctors? Just no.
Jordan (29:54):
We sure aren’t. And also to clarify, I might be a doctor someday. I will never be a medical doctor. That is not my path in life.
Lex (30:05):
No, I mean, that’s fair. Never say never. You never know, but right now, absolutely not.
Jordan (30:11):
Yeah, one major overlap in treatment is Wellbutrin, if some of y’all are familiar with that. It is an antidepressant that is- at least according to the first psychiatrist I had, who kind of sucked, but the Welbutrin did work- one of the most popular and effective for specifically seasonal affective disorder. It works a little bit different than Zoloft or some of the other more popular antidepressants. It doesn’t have as much power in fighting anxiety usually is what I’ve been told by many psychiatrists.
Lex (30:44):
That’s why I got that Zoloft, baby.
Jordan (30:45):
Oh, it’s good. It’s good shit. I do also like Zoloft quite a bit.
Lex (30:49):
It keeps that anxiety nice and even.
Jordan (30:51):
Therapist that I summoned with it. Anyways, so, Wellbutrin, antidepressant, very popular for specifically seasonal affective disorder. It’s an antidepressant that is safe to- under the recommendation and supervization of a licensed mental health professional- go on and off as your season cycle.
Lex:
What? Supervization?
Jordan:
Supervision.
Lex (31:17):
Okay. You might want to take that sentence again, mi amigo. You were on such a roll. You were so confident. You were getting louder too. Maybe sometimes when you’re really getting it. And I was like, oh, I’m so sorry, I’m about to tear it all down.
Jordan (31:33):
I’m about to ruin this man’s career. It’s possible to- under the supervision and recommendation of a psychiatrist or licensed mental health professional- to go on and off as your seasonal needs require. It’s also very common off-label use for adult ADHD. That was what I was prescribed before I was prescribed Adderall. Worked great for the seasonal depression, for me, not so much for the ADHD, but if you have that overlap, it’s been shown to be effective for both. So, that’s a good one. Personally, only speaking for myself and my own experiences, big fan of Wellbutrin. They also actually do mention in the paper, that I’ve basically been reading to you for the past half hour, that in terms of treatment, they say symptoms of ADHD, seasonal affective disorder, and delayed sleep phase syndrome improve with therapy that they refer to as phase resetting, that’s in quotes. This is referring to, in more specific terms, bright light therapy, which is fairly common for seasonal affective disorder and sometimes evening melatonin administration as well. Aligns your cycles, I guess. So, there’s evidence that all three of those things work independently for ADHD and seasonal affective disorder. So, two birds, one stone. Hell yeah. Done it.
Lex (32:56):
Yep. We definitely have a few happy lamps. I love them.
Jordan (33:02):
They’re great. I’m a big fan. The one unfortunate thing I will say is that another big overlap in ADHD and seasonal affective disorder treatment is the neurotypical Karen trifecta of exercise and irregular sleep schedule and making yourself a daytime schedule. Maybe throw in some diet there just to be safe.
Lex (33:30):
Natch. Get your Peloton. Peloton will cure seasonal depression.
Jordan (33:35):
Yeah. Well, here’s the thing. I’m not going to say that those things don’t work.
Lex (33:40):
They definitely help. They’re scientifically proven to help boost endorphins and shit like that, which is great, but it doesn’t work for everybody and not everybody can do that. Yeah. So, you know.
Jordan (33:52):
So, yeah. I guess I kind of wanted to touch on a little bit, how do you do that shit with ADHD? Because it’s hard enough to do when you just have depression. Depression makes it hard to fight depression, but then when you also have ADHD, it adds a layer of shit and getting all of those things done. I don’t know, I was going to share some of my experience if you want to share some of the things that you do [inaudible]
Lex (34:12):
Yeah. Maybe, we’ll see how much time we got. ‘Cause I feel like we’ve talked for a long time.
Jordan (34:18):
Fair amount of it’s cut though. So, my number one recommendation has been manage your expectations. First and foremost, one of the hardest things for me to do, but that’s been really helpful is just let it be okay that you’re not going to be as productive and that you’re not going to be as on top of it and you’re not going to be as social and you’re not going to be all of that jazz. Yeah.
Lex (34:44):
Yeah. Be gentle to yourself. You wouldn’t- well, maybe you would. And I would suggest that you look at your behavior and choices in life, but you wouldn’t normally, most people wouldn’t and shouldn’t verbally abuse their friends when their friends are having a hard time. So, why do we verbally abuse ourselves? You know, why do we beat ourselves up so much? You wouldn’t do that to a friend or family member. And again, if you would, you might want to question that.
Jordan (35:09):
You shouldn’t do that.
Lex (35:11):
Yeah. I don’t wanna step on anyone’s worldviews or, you know, cultural sort of, you know, there’s certain things that I don’t know. I know sometimes people tease each other and that’s just the friendships they have. And so I don’t want to yuck any yums, but generally you should probably be nice to yourself and you should be nice to other people. Kindness is really important and that includes self kindness.
Jordan (35:36):
Yeah. I think that’s a great way of putting that. A followup to that too, if that’s really disappointing to you, ‘cause I know for me sometimes, especially with Christmas, I’m like, well, but I don’t want to miss out on those things. I don’t want to drop the ball. Set yourself a stretch goal. Just pull a Kickstarter and say like, it’s going to be good enough if you can get through the season. But if you want to, and you can, yes, finish knitting that hat and then you don’t have to be disappointed if it doesn’t come through. But then it gives you a little bit of a dopamine, hit a goal, get a reward, maybe. So, manage your expectations. Number two, I think along the lines of kindness, create a support system. Whether that’s friends, family, mental health practitioners, a discord, anybody who you can be open with and also set good boundaries with and they can set good boundaries with you. Don’t turn anyone into your therapist, who’s not your therapist.
Lex:
Friends and family are important. Community is important. This is the podcast. Jordan says things really eloquently and pretty. And then I bring it home with that too long, didn’t read. I got you.
Jordan (36:37):
Very important summaries. And accept help from them. That is also okay to do. That was also a hard thing for me to accept in a lot of my life, but asking for help is good and okay. And accepting help is good and okay. And the last thing that I will say- again, not a doctor- everyone has their own relationship with health and food, but for me, personally, getting through seasonal depression, eat whatever the fuck you want. Your body’s probably going to say it’s time for potatoes. It’s time for motherfucking potatoes then.
Lex (37:10):
Yeah. Your body wants potatoes. Give your body those potatoes.
Jordan (37:16):
Give your body potato.
Lex (37:17):
Your body wants a pentagram full of therapists. Give your body that pentagram full of therapists. We sup at midnight.
Jordan (37:26):
If your body’s like, these need a little Tabasco sauce on them, add a little Tabasco sauce on them. I’m sure at some other point, we’ll talk a lot more about ADHD and food, but that is my holiday advice is, fuck diet culture and feeling bad about yourself, eat whatever you want. That’s what I got.
Lex (37:41):
Okay. Awesome. My tips would be, I would honestly genuinely encourage most people to at least look into whether or not you should get a happy lamp. The fancy lamps that have vitamin D or whatever in them, I dunno, it’s pretty nice. It’s nice to start your day with just a 15 to 30 minutes, sort of little sun sesh.
Jordan (38:02):
A happy little plant.
Lex (38:04):
Yeah, exactly. Just soak up those rays for a minute. Genuinely, genuinely makes a difference, at least for me. And I know for you too. So, that’d be my main suggestion, is look into that at the very least.
Jordan:
Oh yeah. That’s a great suggestion.
Lex:
Yeah. And it’s become a bit of a thing now, right? In terms of wellness and mental health awareness, right? And so we’ve gotten to the point where it’s not just boring slab lights now. There’s cute ones too.
Jordan:
What, there are cute ones now?
Lex:
I think so. I feel like they’re pricier because they’re cute. Not just white slabs. Of course it’s not what I got.
Jordan:
I’m in the white slab club there.
Lex:
Yeah. But it’s a beautiful, wonderful white slab though. So, that would be my main thing. And then everything you said is great too, you know, just be nice to yourself, be nice to other people, be gentle and patient with everybody and everything, including yourself, you know, and let’s all do our best to get through the winters, you know? There’s a reason that it’s called the bleak midwinter.
Jordan:
That Christmas song does slap.
Lex:
Oh yeah. No, of course. It’s just, it wasn’t written for nothing. And I know you mentioned there is a very distinct difference between major depressive disorder, seasonal affective disorder and just having the winter blues or whatever, right? So, there’s a difference between all three of those things. But regardless of whether you have any sort of official or unofficial diagnosis or not.
Jordan:
Everyone deserves kindness.
Lex:
Yeah. Everyone deserves kindness. Everyone deserves potatoes, if you want them, you know. Everyone’s pretty deserving of basic human necessities, I’d say. So, take care of yourselves, take care of each other.
Jordan:
Grow some taters.
Lex (39:50):
I mean, and that’s something that we’ve been doing as a species for millennia, is finding ways to get through winter 100%. There’s a reason that so much of what we understand about the world and how it functions and how time passes is seasonal. There’s a whole reason. There’s a lot of reasons for that. There’s a lot of reasons and it’s not a coincidence that pretty much every culture follows seasonal patterns. And also not a coincidence that most holidays and festivals and celebrations in the winter are all focused on staying warm, staying fed and staying alive. So, you know, we’re not bringing anything new to the table, but we’re bringing crowd favorites.
Jordan:
This is just the green bean casserole podcast.
Lex:
That’s a really bold claim.
Jordan:
I stand by it. I stand by it,
Lex:
Green bean casseroles is one of my favorite foods.
Jordan (40:48):
I know this.
Lex:
All right, well, you know, I love you. I love this podcast and I love making it, but it’s not my favorite podcast by any means. And I stand by that and I feel very okay with that choice.
Jordan:
Sustained. I’ll allow it.
Lex:
Thank you. Thank you. But speaking of seasons. I’d like to, if I may interrupt, get us off this old train here because we have arrived at the Dopamine Trampoline. This is a place where we talk about things that have been giving us dopamine, whether that be a hyperfixation or just something that’s, you know, really buttering our biscuits. That’s just how it goes. We talk about things like, one time I talked about shrooms for an hour. It was a lot.
Jordan:
There’s a lot to talk about with shrooms.
Lex (41:33):
Yeah. One time Jordan talked about hot air balloons and I’m still not over it. It was really cute and wonderful, you know.
Jordan:
I do like hot air balloons.
Lex:
They’re so good. And it just makes me so happy that you like hot air balloons so much, you know. I’m like, hey, that’s my best friend. And they may not have, you know, everything going on. They may have seasonal affective disorder, but they sure do fucking love hot air balloons.
Jordan:
I should just put that on my light.
Lex:
I was trying to say that and I was like, this sounds really bad. Sounds like I’m about to be really mean.
Jordan:
She may have no other redeeming qualities.
Lex
She may be the antichrist.
Jordan:
Between the pentagrams.
Lex:
Halloween was just this past weekend and this is one of the first years that I have not been at the drop of midnight on Halloween, immediately like, alright, it’s Christmas. First time in a while where I’ve been, I kind of want to kind of want to stay in the skeleton onesie. You know, I kind of wanna keep just watching all the scary TV shows.
Jordan:
You can. I’m not going to stop you. I mean, our Christmas tree will go up the day after Friendsgiving. Or the night of, once people leave, depending on how much wine’s been opened.
Lex
Well, but will the angel at the top be a little moth man? Maybe, probably. Here’s hoping. But that said, can I take you to the Dopamine Trampoline?
Jordan:
Please do.
Lex:
Awesome. Because speaking of seasons, my Dopamine Trampoline this week is the lunar cycle. Yeah. I’ve been thinking a lot about the moon lately. I think about the moon all the time. Let’s be real. I love the moon.
Jordan:
Tell me more.
Lex:
It’s my life.
Jordan:
Tell me more, Borat.
Lex:
It’s my life, the moon. The moon is my life. The moon is so cool. I mean, I touched on this, right? People have always had a really big fascination and love of the moon and the sun and how they affect, or how people may have thought they affected, seasonal change. And the moon is one of the first things that humans learned how to tell time by, right? Archeologists think that the first lunar calendar can be dated back to 30 or 40,000 years ago or something. Yeah. No, like in the caves in Europe, like those ones in France that they love to talk about. You know, the ones. Yeah. So, in those caves there are lunar calendars.
Jordan:
I didn’t know that. That’s really cool.
Lex:
Yeah, no, straight up, just you can see the moon phase circles and they have found it on smaller objects, handheld things so that people had a little watch calendar thing that helped you understand what time you needed to be where, based on what size moon was. And you know, now we know that the moon has all these different slivers and looks different every night because it’s orbiting around the earth and the earth is orbiting around the sun. And so the light hits the moon at different angles, depending on where it’s orbiting around the earth. And that’s why sometimes you can’t see it at all. And other times it’s a whole big circle and that’s not what I’m here to talk about. ‘Cause while astro science and everything is cool and neat, y’all don’t need me to tell you how the moon works. My thing is that I think it’s just so cool that as a species, we have pretty much across the board, looked to this orb in the sky. And whether people came to the conclusion that it was a God or monster or some sort of other planets or anything like that, it is something that is intrinsically tied to life on earth. The moon is necessary to the way that things function currently and the general giant ecosystem that is our planet.
Jordan:
You got the tides. You got werewolves.
Lex (45:35):
So, yeah. Well, and that’s the other thing too, right? Is that there is no scientific proof linking certain things to the moon, like the archaic term loony to refer to someone as going, you know, off their rocker, crazy, whatever sort of word you want to use or not want to use. That comes from the idea that the moon would make people go mad and moon, Luna, Latin. So, you know, the whole deal, which a lot of y’all who listen to this podcast probably already knew that too. So, there’s all that. But the moon has always had a very deep effect on people, whether they believe a more mystical sort of thing to be at work, or if it’s just the scientific recognition of what the moon does for our planet. I just think it’s interesting that as a species, we just fucking love that bitch. We just look at the moon. We’re like, yeah, I love that. There’s so much artwork, the amount of moon phase art, tattoos, everything, people love the moon. And it’s not ever going to get old, at least while we’re alive, still gonna be there. So, nice. But also really cool that there was this giant orb in the sky and people were like, hey, that’s changing shapes over time. Let’s keep track of that. Let’s use this.
Jordan:
You’re beautiful. And I’m curious about you. The mix of art and romance, but science and curiosity is so cool.
Lex:
It’s like that base survival mixed with that highest, deepest art, the highest deepest craving for connection, right? That people have, it’s just very cool to me. So, I’ve just been thinking about the moon a lot and you know, I like the moon. I like moon things. Always have. I like being outside at night. Like the moon. I like being able to see the moon. It’s fun to yell at the moon. Not in a mean way, you know, just like wolves, I get it.
Jordan (47:39):
Like holler. Let it out and the moon’s there listening.
Lex (47:44):
Yeah. Like wolves. Wolves are all like, hey, look at this. I’m going to howl. I’m going to howl right now. And I’m like, you know, that sounds like a good idea. That looks cathartic as shit. You know? Yeah. So, that’s it. I guess the lunar cycle and the history of it, I think is interesting. And that most cultures have been using the moon to track time for a long, long time. And also just, I like the moon. Shit’s cool. Giant rock, that’s attached itself to us like a natural satellite. Dave Matthews wrote a whole song about satellites.
Jordan:
Oh, I was with you right up until Dave Matthews.
Lex:
Everyone is always with me until I mention Dave Matthews. No one is ever with me beyond that. It’s okay. I walk this road alone.
Jordan (48:34):
I respect your journey and wish you safe travels. [Inaudible] Oh man, there’s a song that was popular in the 2000-teens that’s also about satellites.
Lex (49:12):
I’m a satellite heart, lost in the dark. And I’ll be true to you. It’s another song about satellites from the 20 teens from Twilight.
Jordan (49:16):
Oh, I was talking about apparently a full third satellite song. I can’t remember the lyrics except Cecelia on her satellite.
Lex (49:27):
Yeah, that one. Yeah. Like pop rock, very All American Rejects sort of sound, right? No, wait, that’s Jack’s Mannequin, isn’t it?
Jordan (49:40):
No, it’s not. We might be thinking of different songs. ‘Cause it’s a little bit more pop rocky. I’m not good at music genres.
Lex (49:52):
But that’s okay. I still love you.
Jordan (49:55):
Thank you. I appreciate that that’s not a deal breaker for us.
Lex (49:58):
For our friendship and roommateship. Hey, you’re bad at music genres. I’m moving out.
Jordan (50:05):
Excuse you, bitch, that’s hyper pop.
Lex (50:09):
Don’t look at me and my psych rock song ever again. Okay. Sorry. What’s your Dopamine Trampoline?
Jordan (50:22):
No, that was such a lovely, heartfelt, full of humanity DT that now all mine feel really stupid.
Lex (50:31):
Okay. But here’s the thing. You talked about the sad shit for the first half of this episode and it’s science stuff. So, I think you’re owed some tomfoolery, you know, I think you’re owed some fuckery.
Jordan (50:43):
All right. Well, I do happen to know that you also like my current DT because you made them. Lex has blessed our entire house by going through a tortillas in cinnamon sugar phase, just frying up flour tortillas in butter and then covering it in cinnamon sugar. And they’re so good.
Lex (51:08):
Low, low budget churros.
Jordan (51:10):
Yeah. Or elephant ears. You called them elephant ears.
Lex (51:12):
Oh yeah, yeah. No, I think what I very problematically said was the poor man’s elephant ear. That’s what I said. I’m pretty sure I said that. [Inaudible]
Jordan (51:27):
It’s not like we’re like, oh, this is how poor people do it. This is how we do it ‘cause we’re broke as shit.
Lex (51:32):
I looked up what the minimum salary was.
Jordan (51:35):
To make elephant ears?
Lex (51:37):
No, to be eligible for health insurance. And it’s like, do you make $56,000 or less? And I was like, yeah, definitely less. Definitely. If I don’t qualify, I’ll be very upset.
Jordan:
That would be absurd.
Lex:
So, yeah. That’s fair. Anyway, so yeah, I believe I called it a poor man’s elephant ear and I guess I’ll stand by it.
Jordan (51:59):
They are amazing, whatever you call them. I think we have this both in common as a childhood snack, but I had not had them in years. My dad and I used to chop up apples and put them in a bag and put them in the microwave to soften them and then put them on top. And it was just like poor, quick, cheap apple pie. Yeah.
Lex (52:21):
Roll it up in a little apple pie burrito.
Jordan (52:23):
Now we’re getting closer to churros, shape wise anyways. Shape wise and cinnamon content. There’s a complexity to churros I will never claim to understand.
Lex (52:33):
Yeah, no. I mean, I’m not saying that’s why I originally called it the poor man’s elephant ear because you know what an elephant ear is? Just a giant round slab of dough. It’s deep fried and covered in whatever you want to put on it. Very similar to fried bread. Yeah.
Jordan (52:46):
Anyways, Lex has been making them a lot.
Lex (52:48):
I was like, this isn’t my DT. What do I do? Just silent. Okay.
Jordan (52:56):
Anyways, Lex has been making those a lot and has been kind enough to also make some for me whenever they do. And they just smack so much ass. They just hit way harder than they should be able to.
Lex (53:10):
It’s a powerful combo. It’s a carb with butter, fried butter, and sugar and cinnamon. Really infallible combo.
Jordan (53:20):
We should end this podcast and go eat some of those.
Lex (53:22):
Oh yeah, sure. I see why you chose this as your DT now. I see. Sneaky. Sneaky how they do that. Audience, you see this? Y’all seeing this? It’s not just me. I’ll hold myself in contempt of the court or whatever.
Jordan (53:37):
You’re the one who’s been going, oh, this podcast is taking so long to record this whole time. So, forgive me for trying to get us out of here.
Lex (53:45):
I said it once. Excuse you.
Jordan (53:46):
I’m going to sound like a real asshole if I have to edit that part out. All right. Let’s take it home. This has been Or, Learn Parkour from Wholehearted Production Company.
Lex (53:56):
You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and most other places cool people listen to podcasts.
Jordan (54:01):
Special thanks to Krizia Perito for our wonderful cover art. You can find her at Petalhop. That’s P-E-T-A-L-H-O-P on Instagram, Twitter and Etsy.
Lex (54:13):
Yeah. And thank you as well to Tom Rosenthal for our intro and outro song, There is a Dark Place off of the album Keep a Private Room Behind the Shop.
Jordan (54:21):
You can follow us on the sosh meeds. We are @OrLearnParkour on Twitter. We’re @wearewpc on Instagram and on our website at wearewpc.com.
Lex (54:33):
Yeah. And if you’re looking for links to those, as well as links to transcripts and our sources for this episode, you can find all of that in the episode description.
Jordan (54:41):
You sure can. If you enjoy this podcast, we hope you do if you’ve made it this far, and would like to hear more, now is a great time to hit that follow, that plus sign, that subscribe. Any of those buttons, press them now, please. Please, follow please.
Lex (55:05):
Follow please. Money please. Now it’s time to ask for money please. ‘Cause we do have a Ko-fi and you can find a link to that on our Twitter, our website and our Instagram and our Linktree, I think. And then also, you know, if you aren’t able to financially support us, which I get. We’re all going through it. Then might I recommend making some poor man’s elephant ears. And while you’re making said elephant ears, tell the nearest person about this podcast. It’s my challenge to you.
Jordan (55:33):
Look to your left. Who’s the first person you see? Tell them, say Or, Learn Parkour is a podcast. Not a request to you right now.
Lex (55:42):
Yeah. I was going to say, that’d be bold move. Or learn parkour. It’s the weirdest get good you can throw at someone. It’s no context. Very strange.
Jordan (55:53):
Maybe that should be our next guerrilla marketing technique.
Lex (55:58):
Or, Learn Parkour, just jumping in front of people.
Jordan (56:03):
That sounds like so much effort though.
Lex (56:05):
Yeah, well, we don’t like that here. So, we probably won’t do that. But if y’all want to do that, Godspeed.
Jordan (56:11):
Knock yourself out. Hopefully not literally. Anyways, I’m Jordan.
Lex:
I’m Lex.
Jordan:
This has been Or, Learn Parkour. We’ll see you in two weeks.