OLP 035: Give Me That ADHDussy – Transcript

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OLP 035: Give Me That ADHDussy

[Intro audio: “There is a Dark Place,” by Tom Rosenthal]

Jordan (00:29):

Hi, I’m Jordan.

Lex (00:28):

And I’m master Lex.

Jordan (00:31):


Lex (00:32):

I have a master’s degree.

Jordan (00:33):

This is true.

Lex (00:33):

And this week, this is Or, Learn Parkour. Hey, how about next time you say yes to my fucking bit. This is Or, Learn Parkour. It’s a podcast about ADHD. My name is Lex and I have a master’s degree and it’s actually relevant this episode. So I thought I would just introduce myself with my title.

Jordan (00:52):

No, that’s very valid. That’s very valid. I just, I think I forgot.

Lex (00:57):

Did you think I was all of a sudden asserting dominance over you in a very weird and aggressive way?

Jordan (01:03):

No, no.

Lex (01:04):

For the first time in four plus years of friendship or whatever, and just all of a sudden I’m like, hey, what if I add some weird dominance and submissiveness to our friendship, even though we are completely platonic and we co cat-parent.

Jordan (01:15):

Thanks. I hate it. I was like, is this another karate kid remake? Do we need another one?

Lex (01:25):

I am genuinely.

Jordan (01:26):

You have a master’s degree. I know.

Lex (01:28):

Yeah. But you don’t go around calling people master when they have master’s. Not like you do with people with PhDs and calling them doctor, even though every person I know who has a doctorate is like, please don’t call me doctor.

Jordan (01:41):

Yeah. Unless they’re a practicing medical doctor, pretty much everyone I know is either like, don’t or no, honestly, I’ve never met somebody who has a doctorate in art.




Yeah. Who’s like, yes, I am Dr. Jordan Rawlings with my doctorate in theater. Then people make the noise that you did. But yes, you do have a master’s degree. I was there when you got it. And it is relevant this episode of Or, Learn Parkour, a podcast about ADHD by people who have ADHD.

Lex (02:22):

Because today we’re gonna talk about some of the theories, anthropologically speaking, of how ADHD came to develop in humans and why 3 to 4% of the population has the brain worms and just some interesting stuff. Just wanna clarify, I have a master’s degree in anthropology, but that doesn’t really mean fuck all. I just read other people’s research and findings for a couple days straight and my eyes got very tired. And then I knew more by the end of it. And now I’m here to tell y’all. So yeah, you know, just wanna set up some groundwork just real quick, before we get started. So bear with me.

Jordan (03:05):

That is one similarity between this and some sort of weird dominance thing, that you should talk about ground rules first.

Lex (03:15):

Yeah. Yeah. I said laying the groundwork, which I feel like is a little bit more construction based in its analogy, but I also agree with that. So let’s do both. Weird energy, just a weird energy in the studio today.

Jordan (03:30):

It’s like a role reversal for us in the sense of, you’re the one who did all the research this episode and I’m just here to be pretty.

Lex (03:37):

Yeah. No, it’s weird. I’m not normally super prepared for episodes. Don’t feel super prepared for this one, but I feel prepared enough cuz, you know, we’re not doctors. 




We’re not experts. 


We’re definitely not. 


Yeah. We’re just two idiots who have ADHD.

Jordan (03:54):

And we sit in a closet and talk about it every two weeks.

Lex (03:56):

Almost every two weeks. We do forget pretty often cuz, you know, the aforementioned ADHD, but yeah, we’re gonna talk about how there’s 3 to 4% of people who have brains that are a little funky, have a little bit of that ADHD stink on ’em. So let me tell you something about evolution and natural selection, cuz that will play a real big part in this whole discussion today. If that’s not your thing, sorry, but most people in the anthropological community are pretty behind that theory cuz it’s pretty scientifically supported. And so we will be going from a chimp brain standpoint, okay. We will be coming at this from a monkey brain standpoint.

Jordan (04:34):

That feels correct. I don’t have a master’s degree. I don’t know shit.

Lex (04:42):

Yeah. So basically, several thousand years ago there were apes and chimps and this started changing based on the landscape they were in and some of them started becoming completely, solely bipedal instead of just quadrupedal, chimps and apes started to become partially bipedal and then eventually completely bipedal. Lost a lot of hair, started using complex language and thought, started forming societies and social bonds. You know, life became a lot more complex, but it took a while and it was complex because there was a lot of different types of species of bipedal, humanoid-esque, human adjacent species, you know. We got Neanderthals, which, if you wanna be really fancy and anthropological about it, you can say it Neandertal. Yeah. I think it’s the British thing too. I don’t know.

Jordan (05:35):

Like aluminium.

Lex (05:36):


Jordan (05:37):

And garage.

Lex (05:38):

Well, yeah.


And schedule.

Lex (05:40):

Except for, aluminium is actually spelled aluminium. So, British people, I get why you say aluminium cuz that’s how it’s spelled there. It’s spelled differently here. It’s spelled aluminum in the United States. It is actually spelled aluminium. When I was living in the UK, I made a point to find out cuz it bothered me a lot. 


No, that’s fair. I appreciate it. 


Why are they adding? Why are they adding a whole fucking syllable? You’re British. I thought you were supposed to be all, you know, short with the words and low on feelings and expressing yourselves, you know? So anyways, so you got Neanderthals, homo erectus, homo sapiens is what we are, but you had some other homo sapien adjacent species that could mate with. So that’s why a lot of, specifically white people, a lot of European people, cause that’s where it’s most commonly found in the genetic map, a lot of our European ancestors got down and dirty with some Neanderthals. Cuz most white people do have a little bit of Neanderthal in them.


Really? I did not know that. 


Yeah. So I think that’s pretty neat and funny that there was some interspecies mating that clearly happened cuz there’s enough of a percentage, it’s noticeable and anyways. So you gotta keep in mind though that homo sapiens, we are that species. And so if you can take a second to let yourself think about the fact that the people who lived thousands of years ago, our ancestors, their brains were about the same size, their bodies were about the same, their emotions and feelings would’ve been at the same chemical outputs that they are now. And so people weren’t less intelligent, they weren’t inferior to us. So the whole idea that we were just grunting little monkey men in a cave is pretty derivative and pretty, you know, not allowing for the vastness that is the human species. Because even back then, we spread around real quick. You know what I mean? And so yeah, I’m taking us so far back and I promise there’s a reason that I’m talking about species before homo sapiens and along with homo sapiens, because the thing with, at least what we associate medically with ADHD, right, is that lack of norepinephrine or whatever, a lack of dopamine. And then, is it overload of norepinephrine? Fuck. I don’t know. 


It’s been a while since we recorded that episode. I forgot.


So, you know, when you look at the imbalances with dopamine and norepinephrine in ADHD brains, you know, medically, that’s sort of two of the things that you can point to is, well, this is sort of the same for everyone with ADHD, regardless of what type it is. And so we know that there is a genetic component, right. And especially because we see how common it is for ADHD to be a trait that is passed genetically. And so, clearly, ADHD is pretty prevalent to be 3 to 4% of the population globally, but not so prevalent that it, you know, is a clear, universal human trait, cause it’s not. And so basically what that means, what that leads experts to look at is why is it only 3 to 4%? Why did any percentage, say, at all if it really is, you know, something. The traits of people with ADHD are clearly not, there’s clearly some maladaptive traits associated with ADHD, especially in a productivity based industrial society. We’ve talked about this many times, there’s a lot of struggles with being an adult or a child or just anyone with a brain that doesn’t work the way the status quo expects your brain to work. So, granted, I think it’s fair to say that societally speaking, in terms of selecting genetically for what will aid you in survival, a lot of the traits associated with ADHD would, I would say, evolutionarily be considered maladaptive.

Jordan (09:27):

Can you real quick-

Lex (09:28):

Explain maladaptive? 




So traits that are going to hurt you more than they will help you. So basically, 3 to 4%, it’s not a big percentage. So that means that there’s not good enough traits associated with it to have kind of spread throughout all of, you know what I mean, spread throughout more of humanity, but it’s clearly not so maladaptive that it got completely bred out, basically.

Jordan (09:56):

Yeah. Is that specifically in reference to its value to survival or can things be considered maladaptive in other settings?

Lex (10:05):

I mean, you would have to probably talk to an evolutionary biologist to get the real science and nitty gritty behind maladaptive versus-

Jordan (10:16):

No, that’s fair. But in this sense we’re using it for survival?

Lex (10:19):

Yeah. I mean, in this sense we’re gonna use it for survival because that’s the other thing, this is not an episode questioning what the purpose of human life is here on this planet. And so we’re gonna go with the scientific evolutionary sort of idea that animals, ourselves included, naturally select, and by that I mean get it on, selectively with partners, singular or multiple, however many, in order to keep producing the species to survive. And so if you see, well, I guess we’ll do some basics. So if you see someone and you’re in a hunter gatherer society and you’re sitting there collecting the berries, doing the foraging and the gathering and you look over and you see the hunter who’s young and spry and extra fast and catches the meat better than everyone else, that’s a good provider. And if you’re that speedy hunter and you look over at the gatherers and you see someone’s basket is just overflowing with nuts and mushrooms then you know they’re gonna be a good provider, you know that you’re gonna be able to survive with this mate. And so for humans, we see a lot of times that childrearing, in human history anyways, is very much based on promoting survival. Not to say that we don’t have so many other complexities that go into our lives, right. Especially as mammals that live for as long as we do in comparison to other mammals, right. And even in comparison to other apes, and other apes, and even in comparison to other apes and people.




Primates. Thank you. I was like, I literally keep trying to say the word and my brain just keeps going apes.

Jordan (12:06):

So apes, you wanna try again? Apes. How about apes? Apes? Yeah. So in the primate family, we still live a lot longer than most other primates even. And so there is some level of, even before we started figuring out modern medicine and lengthening our lives, humans have had longer lifespans. And so there’s so much time in our lives to experience lots of complexity. And so I want to really hit home the fact that when we talk about hunter gatherers and we talk about they were selecting for survival, they were still people. And that’s why I really earlier wanted to reiterate the fact that we’re coming at this from a place of we’re the same species that we were back then. And so try to put yourself in that situation. Does that make sense? Cause, I mean, that’s a big thing in my experience, in anthropology, in this day and age, is that so much of it is really, truly empathy based. Even when you’re doing archeology and biological anthropology where you’re looking into the past and you can’t necessarily talk to people like you can with cultural anthropology where you often have a chance to sit down and chat with people and learn more about them that way, you really only have genetic material. And what we find in terms of evidence at grave sites, at archeological dig sites, right? And so it is hard because, you know, we only have so many remains from back then. So, you know, it can’t all be Ötzi the Iceman with our just top notch, you know, it’s so wild to me that there are people, this is a total side note, this is totally tangential. This is gonna happen the whole time. I’m so sorry. I realize I haven’t stopped to take a breath in a while. I feel like this is just-


Do you wanna do that? 


Well, I mean, I’m fine. I just realized you haven’t really said much. And I think it’s just cuz I have not shut up and I’m very sorry. 


No, you’re the expert this episode.


I guess so. Ötzi the Iceman is one of the oldest, most intact corpses, essentially, we’ve ever found because he was deeply frozen in ice. There’s a lot of things that we have guessed about Ötzi the Iceman, but nothing you can really prove cuz he’s dead. And it was thousands of years ago, but this is completely tangential, Ötzi the Iceman is one of my favorite argument pieces for tattoos. Because people today who get upset about tattoos and say that you are doing something that is going against your own body, right? Your body’s a temple and you shouldn’t be marring it. We’ve been doing this. Humans have been putting permanent ink on our skin for century upon century, millennia. 

Jordan (14:50):

You’re really joining in a grand tradition of humanity as we know it.

Lex (14:53):

And that’s the thing, there’s so much stuff that you think about the things you need to do every day. People still had to do those things back then. And so I think that’s the other thing, is to think about what would it have been like to have my little pea brain? My little ADHD pea brain back in the day. And how would that have harmed me or helped me? And so a lot of these theories kind of are going from that place of, these are traits we associate with ADHD. Are they helpful or are they harmful? And you’ll find out as we go further into this episode, people have very different opinions on whether they are helpful or harmful. Whether these are traits that should be selected for or if they really are maladaptive, which is probably, you know, the disagreement even among experts is probably a little bit indicative of why there’s 3 to 4% of us, but not a ton. Cuz I bet there’s, you know, not I bet, I know there’s, you know, there are people out there who are freaks and are like, yeah, give me that one with the weird little brain. I want the one with the brain worms. Yeah.

Jordan (15:53):

Give me that ADHDussy.

Lex (15:54):

Yeah, exactly. So it’s enough that there are some people who must have seen it as a benefit. But not enough to make it the popular choice of the buffet.

Jordan (16:05):

We’re not like other brains.

Lex (16:06):

We’re not like other brains. I’m so sorry. So no, it’s all good.

Jordan (16:13):

I’m not contributing. It’s good that I haven’t been talking. I’m not contributing anything.

Lex (16:17):

No, but this is what we need, because I think if I just keep talking about this stuff, maybe it’s interesting enough for you to keep listening, dear audience, but I think it’s fair to say that we know that you come here for the idiocy and the dumbs, the dumb dumbs being us.

Jordan (16:31):

And also the lollipops that you get at the bank. I think those are worth a shoutout.


Do they still give lollipops out banks now with COVID? I feel like they probably stopped.

Jordan (16:39):

I will say I have gone to the Chase bank down the street from us to get laundry quarters and they have a tray of Dum Dums, but it is behind the teller glass. So I think that you have to ask, which I’m always embarrassed to do as an almost 27-year-old adult.

Lex (16:57):

Yeah. No, that’s fair. That’s so fair. I’m more of a cotton candy fan myself.

Jordan (17:04):

More for you. Works out great.


And that makes sense to me. but I would bet that the tellers are like, a child with the parent, would you like a lollipop? So I think maybe even if you, well, I don’t know, cuz if a grown adult is coming to you hand on their heart to ask you for a Dum Dum from behind the glass, at that point, are you gonna say no?

Jordan (17:27):

I guess there’s only one way to find out.

Lex (17:29):

Yeah. You’re just gonna have to work up the gumption, ask and report back. Not just to me, to the whole audience.

Jordan (17:35):

To the whole wide world.

Lex (17:35):

Yeah. So do you have any questions so far about where I’m heading with this?

Jordan (17:40):

I don’t think so. I mean, it makes sense so far, I think.

Lex (17:44):


Jordan (17:45):

I’ll say something really stupid later that’ll prove that I understood nothing, but until then, please continue.

Lex (17:48):

Amazing. Okay. So let’s talk about the key differences in some of these theories about how and why ADHD is a thing in human brains. So there are three main views on this that I found as I was looking through things. And so the first idea is looking at ADHD as a genetic anxiety, right, that the imbalance of dopamine and norepinephrine is a thing that can very easily cause anxiety and depression and that those are often comorbid with ADHD, as we’ve discussed. And so there is one theory that comes from the view that ADHD is anxiety based. And so the reason that it was selected for at all is because of the paying incredibly close attention to everything all at once somehow. The deep anxiety that you feel when you’re just sitting still, when you’re not doing anything, the inability to sleep through a full night and, you know, having a sort of fucked up rhythm there. So those sorts of things are sort of where they’re coming from. There’s survival. There was this anxiety and need to survive. And ADHD brains, in terms of how anxiety can motivate us, that makes sense. And I think that’s the other thing I want to note too, is that all of these theories could be true. But again, I don’t have an answer. I don’t have a definitive, this is just kind of an interesting thing. This is a podcast, this is what you’re here for [inaudible]. So that brings me through to the second one, in terms of circadian rhythm. Because the second view is that ADHD is primarily a temporal time related problem in that it’s an inability of people with ADHD brains to keep track of time accurately. And just because clocks weren’t invented in the neolithic era or whenever the fuck, just cuz clocks hadn’t been invented at that point in human history doesn’t mean that people weren’t able to keep track of time in some ways. Cause the sun still happened. 


Sundials have been around for a hot minute now. 


We’re talking about, if we’re talking about way back, I’m talking when we were still walking the earth with Neanderthals. So that would’ve probably been a little bit pre sundial. Just cuz they died out over 10,000 years ago. And I wanna say the oldest sundial is 5,000 maybe. So you don’t really have many ways to have set, direct times, but you’re looking at the sun. You’re living day by day, you’re living with the seasons, right? You don’t necessarily need an alarm clock when you just have a rhythm that has you set, right? 

Jordan (20:53):

Yeah. You’re gonna listen to something, whether it’s, you know, an alarm clock, burbs, or a candle with nails falling out of it, or your own body.

Lex (21:02):

Yeah. Gotta piss. If nothing else, pissing does usually get people outta bed.

Jordan (21:08):

Yeah. I mean, I could tell the time by nothing else except I gotta take a dump at about 10:30. Almost on the dot.

Lex (21:16):

Yep. Morning shits, love. They always feel very, very freeing,

Jordan (21:19):

Very healing.

Lex (21:21):

So imagine you’ve gotten up, rolled outta your moss pad in the cave. Check the cave drawings. See what the news is around camp. I don’t know. You walk out, do your business and think, hmm, I gotta shit. Probably late morning. So anyways, but imagine that someone with an ADHD brain, light and the circadian rhythms that are associated most commonly with human bodies don’t apply to your body or brain. So not only are you the odd one out in the camp, you also can’t sleep a lot of the time. However, this, in my opinion, would’ve been a good thing, and in many experts’ opinion is a good thing, because it means that even if you have to piss, even if you’re hungry, even if you’re sleepy, you’re not gonna finish working on that basket you’re weaving until it’s finished. And you get up every night in the middle of the night cuz you just can’t sleep at that time. That’s great. It gives good old Frank at the, you know, garden during third shift, gives him a little rest. So I think that those are things that make sense that at least it’s good to have at least some of them. At least a little bit of brain worms. But then you think about how socially we’re very social creatures, humans, and you know, I think about myself and several other people that I know who have ADHD, or are just neurodivergent in general, who grew up feeling as though they were out of touch, annoying, unwanted. Like you couldn’t do anything right no matter how hard you tried. I imagine that they probably had that issue too at that time. And so you think about, god bless all of the little white boys who have been diagnosed with ADHD, but if you’re sitting around the campfire, you know, learning those sweet, sweet oral traditions from your elders and fucking little Robby down the line, just won’t sit down and pay attention. Gets real fucking annoying. And so socially I’m sure, right, that there is some level of like, I don’t care if you get up in the middle of the night and do third shift for us, you’re a lot, you know? And so I think that there’s probably something to be said there too. And especially with the time, the view, sort of with a temporal issue and having a problem understanding that you are physically in the world and you are unfortunately a prisoner to time as it marches on.

Jordan (23:53):

Like we all are.

Lex (23:53):

Yeah. But sometimes those differences don’t just mean that you’re helpful and can take over for the night watch. It might mean that you are late to the seasonal hunting, gathering with the local other nomadic groups that you trade with twice a year. It means that you might be operating on a different timeline in terms of where you think your life should be, because that’s another thing is that people with ADHD do tend to be just slightly socially delayed than their peers of the same age. So you have to think this is all still happening. It’s just a completely different culture and time. And so I can see why there’s about 3 to 4%, cuz it makes sense. It makes sense as to how it is now where neurodivergent people find each other because we can work it out together and everyone else is just kind of like, okay, great. So, eugenics, let’s get going on that. Huh? I’m not wrong.

Jordan (24:58):

No, you’re not.

Lex (24:59):

Yeah. People are like that. They’re like, your brain’s different, better kill you, better just cut this one out of the fabric of mankind as it is.

Jordan (25:09):

But on the flip side of that, I can imagine a situation in a hunting gathering group where, you know, maybe all of the people who have become the typical age to marry or partner, mate, and have their own families. You know, most of the neurotypical people hit that. And then you have a handful of extra people in case you lose a couple of the younger ones to childbirth or to pick up the slack in gathering when half of the other people have babies on their hips, you know?

Lex (25:38):

Yeah. So, absolutely, yeah. I mean, communal living, a big reason that people with disabilities are still alive cause there have always been people that care about everyone. I think that’s the other thing too. The empathy we feel. The empathy we’re capable of feeling. So were our ancestors. So I think that’s a cool thing to think about too. Just in connections and whatever. The third thing though, because we’ve talked about looking at ADHD traits specifically in relation to time, we’ve talked about them specifically in relation to anxiety and fear, and the third view comes at it more from a creativity place of, this is really the only positive spin that I saw, was the fact that there are positives to not being as in touch or in sync with a group, timewise. There can be positives to having survival based anxiety. I think that’s what’s interesting, is that’s what all of these experts are looking to figure out cuz it’s enough of a number and the variation of cultural diversity within ADHD. It’s found in every part of the world. And so we know that it is like, oh, this fucking human species because there are things like nose shape, eye shape, skin color, you know, things that develop and change as people lived and settled in certain areas of the world. And then they continue to select with one another. And that’s how you have what races and ethnicities look like today. That’s a very, very, very watered down version of that science. But there is a reason why, say, a lot of people in cold regions have bigger noses because from an evolutionary standpoint, there’s more time for the air to get from the outside and into your lungs and with a longer nasal canal that warms the air up a little bit and makes it less harsh on your lungs when you’re breathing in. 


I didn’t know that. 


Yeah. That’s one of my favorite facts. 


That’s fun. 


So thinking about things like that, there’s not always a reason that we can find for every part of the human body. There are a lot of parts of our bodies that we don’t use anymore, or not a lot, but there are parts of our bodies that we don’t use and that we don’t really know what the purpose is. But sometimes we can see what the purpose would have been in the past. And so anyways, I just think it’s very fascinating to look at how humans develop. But ADHD being 3 to 4% of the global population, it is everywhere. Anywhere that there are people there is ADHD. And so that shows that that was a trait that was selected for even in the smallest amount, from the beginning. And continued to permeate all of humanity to the point where it’s 3 to 4% of the global population. So I think a) super cool to think about the fact that we’re only 3 to 4% of the population. There’s just a handful of us, really. But that is a high enough percentage to mean that these traits were selected for. Because if they hadn’t been, it would not have been too hard to breed it out, basically. And that’s not, again, this is all such a watered down explanation of how evolution and natural selection and looking at maladaptive traits versus survival, traits that will actually aid people in survival. I just think it’s cool to think about what connects us from back then to now. And so the third view is much more creativity based and looks at the fact that people with ADHD brains often think in completely different patterns. It’s like you’re not thinking inside or outside of the box, you’re opening a fourth dimension with a sphere or something. Do you know what I mean? There’s something to be said about that ingenuity that comes from a brain that isn’t meant to work the same way as everyone else’s. And so there’s another theory that that is a huge reason why it is enough of a trait that, like you said, you have the extra people who are inventing shit, helping out when they need to, but maybe weren’t necessarily always partnered up, but enough of them were.

Jordan (30:06):

Enough of them were. It kind of reminds me of that phrase, the way you look is proof that generations of your face have been loved. And the idea of the way that we are now is proof that generations of the way that we are, have been loved, you know? It’s pretty cool to think about.

Lex (30:24):

It’s genuinely part of the reason that I got my master’s in anthropology is because the whole field is so good, in my experience anyways, for me personally, and with other anthropologists that I know, it is so good. At least at this day and age, historically anthropology, not a stellar field, don’t worry. I’m not trying to say that anthropology is the be-all end-all of how we should be looking at the world. I’m just saying for me, it was very helpful to have that empathy. But more than that, it makes me feel so deeply connected. Beyond empathy. It gets to that common place of origin that I think is, frankly, in this culture and society, especially here in the US, is very much missing. And that is a trait that is commonly missing in our culture and society, specifically.

Jordan (31:21):

There’s some things that can be said for individualism, but it only gets you so far.

Lex (31:25):

And you know, individualism is really cool until you are the one slipping on a bath mat and falling in the shower or until you are the one who has aged to the point where your eyes aren’t as good as they used to be, and you can’t drive to get groceries. Independence is great until you can’t be independent, which-

Jordan (31:44):

Which happens to-

Lex (31:45):

Most of us. Yeah. Pretty much all of us that you’re not immune to needing people. So jot that down. It has nothing to do with this anthropological lesson, but it is important, more important than anything else we’ve said. I mean, it is. Yeah. I just explained why it’s relevant. Anyways, do you have questions for me? I know that was a very watered down sort of explanation of those three main views on why ADHD has been selected for. Is it because we’re anxious and wanna survive? Is it because sometimes it’s useful to have someone who’s never on time or was it because having an ADHD brain was actually seen as something to be revered and treasured? Or is it all three? Or is it none of them? We will never know. We literally won’t know definitively. And that is a bummer. So if you like definitive answers, anthropology might not be the field for you. But if you’re like me and you hate committing to shit like that. It’s awesome.

Jordan (32:48):

Great. Hell yeah.

Lex (32:49):

Yeah. But yeah, I don’t know. I just think it’s cool that there’s people across multiple fields who are like, we know what ADHD sort of is, but we don’t really know what it is totally. And we don’t really know how it works, but yeah, let’s take a good old guess and see if we can figure out why it was naturally selected for, with all of this information we clearly already have.

Jordan (33:10):

Let’s go ahead and give it the old post grad college try.

Lex (33:13):

Okay. To be fair, anthropologists fucking just love to guess.

Jordan (33:16):

I love that for you guys. That’s great. That’s great. I think that that was a very good summary of, essentially, if I’m summing it up correctly, some of the leading ideas about how the traits of ADHD might have been cultivated and passed on, where their value, in terms of either anxiety, or time, or creativity, the three of those things, having a benefit to the society that these people were in. Is that it?

Lex (33:44):

Yeah. I think that is the bare bones of it. Yes. Granted, there are these fucking academic articles over here like, a temporal relationship to time management and it’s like, okay, just fucking tell me that. Okay. All right. And like creativity, right. It’s like ingenuity in the capacity for human invention and it’s like, that’s fucking cool. Sounds dope. I have a podcast.

Jordan (34:06):

Yeah, creativity is one of those things that has always been so easy to quantify and define. I don’t know why they had such an issue with it.

Lex (34:16):

And especially because our ancestors are fucking dead. And it’s not like they had a word for ADHD. We didn’t have a word for ADHD till the fucking 1900s. So it’s not like we could go back in time even, and just be like, so who has ADHD in this here caveman camp? And then how our ancestors are just like, arghhh cause we just appeared out of a ray of mist. So you can’t really do that cause a) it seems a little rude and b) you know-

Jordan (34:49):

Totally against time travel ethics.

Lex (34:51):

Yeah. Well, and then you think about, you mix time travel ethics with anthropological ethics, cuz you had bitches like fucking Hunter S. Thompson and listen, I know, I know we all love to love and love to hate Hunter S. Thompson. But when it comes to his attempts, I call them attempts at anthropology and sociology by way of gonzo journalism, you know, a big reason that we have internal review boards now. You know, things like cockfighting happened so that the Stanford prison experiment could happen, you know. There’s a rich history of anthropologists being the literal worst. As in any field that is derived from a Western academic perspective of whiteness and colonialism. So I think even this whole episode, from an anthropological standpoint, take it all with a grain of fucking salt, cuz this is just one way to look at the world and it is riddled with its own bullshit. I do have a master’s degree in it though. And I am pretty proud of that. Yeah. Cuz I did manage to do something right.

Jordan (36:01):

You got a whole-ass master’s degree.

Lex (36:02):

Yeah. So bang bang boom. Yeah. I don’t know if y’all have things you wanna add or ask or if there’s things about that history that you would be more interested in me putting in the work to maybe do some deeper digging there. Let us know, you know, I’m not against that.

Jordan (36:21):

Please let us know. I think that that’s kind of a conversation that’s been happening in the community on and off. I mean, I know I’ve seen the tweets floating around like, here’s why, circumstantially, we can imagine that. That would be helpful.

Lex (36:35):

Yeah. Or like, here’s why putting something on your hip genuinely is a thing that is a generational movement. That is muscle memory. That is generational memory, remembering how to lift things up on your hip properly. It’s interesting to see the way that humanity moves and is connected. Sorry. I’m fine. Everything’s fine.

Jordan (37:00):

No, that’s great. It’s so true too. Cuz you can’t do that specific motion and not feel connected to a Victorian washerwoman somewhere.

Lex (37:08):

Yeah. No. I can’t pick up even my niece or my nephew and you know, just pop ’em on my hip. I think about the fact that we don’t necessarily learn how to hold babies and take care of children from studying or being taught about it. We learn those things because we watch our elders do it. We watch our parents do it.

Jordan (37:29):

We watch it happen to us. Watch it happen to the people who come after us. Absolutely.

Lex (37:34):

No one ever told me, when you pick up a child, it’s gonna be easiest if you pick them up and then put ’em on your hip because they’ll feel more comfortable and they’ll have a little ledge to sit on if you’ve got big hips.

Jordan (37:47):

In terms of your center of gravity, that makes sense as a place to brace weight. All around a win-win.

Lex (37:51):

Better for your back and your arms. But no one ever sat me down to tell me that. It’s just a thing that you do. You think about people. This is a left field example, but I’ve been thinking about it. Thinking about people with shy bladders who can’t piss in public, right? Biologically, anthropologically, there’s a reason for that.

Jordan (38:16):

No, you’re so right. This is such a valid example. I just love that we’ve had this conversation before while you were sitting on the toilet, unable to pee.

Lex (38:28):

I have such bad toilet anxiety. It’s so stupid. It’s not logical. I’ll sit down on the toilet and I’m like, I literally have to pee so bad. And I’m pushing. I’m like, come on, urethra, open ’em on up. Come on. Be like Mitski, open it up like the gates of hell. We got some piss to let out. And my little goblin brain, on a subconscious level, is like, I’m not absolutely positively sure that we are safe from danger in this exact moment. And so no, you cannot begin to pee until I have completely and fully deduced that there are no giant cats or little spiders or scorpions or anything. Nothing is going to hurt us while we’re doing this.

Jordan (39:15):

I wonder if that’s where the very common fear of something swimming up through the toilet and biting your ass comes from.

Lex (39:21):

I think that might specifically be Stephen King.

Jordan (39:23):

Oh really?

Lex (39:24):

Yeah. I mean, cuz there’s that one with the moss that’s red, I can’t remember which one that is. I haven’t been into Stephen King in a while. It’s gonna bother me if I don’t.

Jordan (39:36):

No, that’s fair. Also the very specific to us, situational irony of the fact that even if you are alone, our toilet has apparently not been safe to sit on for a while.

Lex (39:47):

Yeah. Oh that’s a fun one. Dreamcatcher. That’s a thing in Dreamcatcher. Stephen King’s story. Except for it’s a red moss and then someone shits out a monster thing. It’s very alien, but also it’s very strange. Anyways, I think a similar fear of swimming in water and a fear of something coming up from beneath you, right. That’s another point for this theory of the way that biologically, there are some physical things that, no matter how technologically advanced our society is, no matter how emotionally mature and just so cool and fucking smart you are, bud, you are not immune to feeling a little calmer when you have cold water splashing on your face. You are not immune to the mammalian response. Yeah. You’re not immune. I’m sorry.

Jordan (40:39):

Yeah. And thank god for that. It’s one of my favorite parts of being alive.

Lex (40:42):

Yeah. No, god, putting my face in some water is just so good. So yeah, you know, take all this with a grain of salt. This has just given y’all a little glimpse into my field of study and how stupid it is.

Jordan (40:59):

No, that was great.

Lex (40:59):

Thank you. That’s very kind. I recognize you have to say that.

Jordan (41:03):

I don’t. We’ve said very mean things to each other on this podcast.

Lex (41:07):

No, I know, but not when we’re ever actually being sincere cuz we’re actually friends and care very much for each other, you know?

Jordan (41:20):

Love you, bro.

Lex (41:20):

Love you, bro. But yeah, you’re a bitch. Anyways. Thanks for listening. I don’t know, sometimes I just get really caught up in the information I’m saying, and I don’t actually know if it’s being delivered in a way that’s palatable, enjoyable, or even understandable. So it’s cool that you somehow got something from that and I hope, dear audience, that you did too.

Jordan (41:38):

Thank you so much for doing all of the research and figuring this out and explaining it.

Lex (41:44):

I don’t thank you like this when you do it.

Jordan (41:46):

I know, I’m showing you up.

Lex (41:47):

Yeah, you super are.

Jordan (41:50):

No, I learned something new and I think that since that conversation has been kind of happening in the ADHD community of the origins of this, and why and how it could be useful. Cause I think that that’s something that’s kind of soothing to think about as well when you feel really out of sorts in our world, because you talked about how ADHD is maladaptive to capitalism. Yeah.

Lex (42:17):

I should say.

Jordan (42:17):

It does help and it is soothing and kind of affirming to think about this sense of there’s still value in it and usefulness. But also I think it’s worth mentioning, you know, the kind of colloquial story that’s gone around about, I don’t remember who it was, but somebody saying the first sign of humanity or civilization was a healed broken leg. Have you heard that? Yeah. And that idea of, we just keep people around because we love them and we love having them in our communities. But I think that it is, you know, like you said, it’s affirming to you to be a part of anthropology because of that connection. I think that that feels good for all of us. Especially when you feel excluded by the way that society is now.

Lex (43:04):

Yeah, exactly. And you know, if you have tattoos, you’ve always got Ötzi.

Jordan (43:09):

That’s true.

Lex (43:11):

If you don’t know who Ötzi the Iceman is, I feel like most of us learned about him in biology in 10th grade, right?

Jordan (43:18):

I feel like I didn’t learn about Ötzi until I listened to the Radiolab episode, but I also only did half school my last two years of high school. So I probably missed a fair amount of stuff.

Lex (43:28):

Well that’s so fair. I just, again, was a big nerd and into archeology from a very young age.

Jordan (43:34):

We’ll share some links. We’ll pop some good Ötzi content in.

Lex (43:38):

It genuinely is just really cool. Cuz he is the oldest intact human remains that we have ever found. And he’s as well preserved as he can be. This is really interesting, right? The best places for dead bodies to remain completely intact is frozen in ice, you know, which we all know.

Jordan (44:01):

Worked great for Captain America.

Lex (44:02):

Looking at you, Walt.

Jordan (44:05):







Because he’s got a fucking cryogenically frozen head in the middle of-




That’s one of those big theories, one of those big conspiracy theories that Walt Disney’s head is cryogenically frozen and they’re just waiting to pop it back on to whatever body thing that can hold a human brain and soul. I don’t know if that’s real, but people joke about it. People talk about it. No one can prove that his head isn’t cryogenically frozen and in the fucking locked vault, along with the original VCR version of The Black Cauldron or some shit.

Jordan (44:42):

That’s another new thing I learned today. Cuz I don’t think I’ve ever heard about that.

Lex (44:46):

The Black Cauldron?

Jordan (44:48):

No, Walt Disney’s cryogenically frozen head.

Lex (44:50):

Okay. Maybe I’m insane. Maybe I’m genuinely losing it. Maybe I’m from another timeline and I somehow jumped and that’s not a thing here, but I feel like it’s a thing, right? I can’t say, there’s no one to inform me.

Jordan (45:04):

Did you grow up on a book called Berenstain Bears?

Lex (45:06):

Shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. So anyways, I know that you can’t respond to me right now because you won’t be hearing this until several days after this conversation is taking place, but back me up, okay? Right? Please someone back me up and let me know that that’s a thing that people theorize, right?

Jordan (45:26):

Yeah. Let us know.

Lex (45:27):

That Walt Disney’s head is cryogenically frozen in a locked vault at Disney and just waiting for the right time to come back. Be his good old racist self. Yeah. But yeah. So frozen or in bogs.

Jordan (45:41):

Oh, I knew that one.

Lex (45:42):

Yeah. We got some bog mans.

Jordan (45:45):

We got some bog butter too.

Lex (45:47):

Yeah. We’ve got shit that has been kept in the fucking bog. Yeah. In the peat. In the moss. In the slurp. Because that shit is so thick and so gross that it just literally kept oxygen from getting into bodies. Bogs are no fucking joke. I know quick sand is not as big of a fear, but bogs, there’s quick mud. There’s not just quicksand, there’s quick mud. Next thing you know, you’ll be on some weird little nerdy scientist’s table as they’re categorizing all your tattoos.

Jordan (46:23):

So get some cool ones kids.

Lex (46:25):

Yeah. That’s what I always say. It’s my reason for getting tattoos. So when someone robs my grave, they still know that they’re robbing someone cool. So yeah. Anyways, let’s move on from this rather morbid point of the conversation. We always make a point to hop on over to the Dopamine Trampoline. It’s a place where we each get to talk about something that is giving our brain dopamine or gave our brain dopamine. Something that’s just making us happy. Maybe a hyperfixation, maybe just a TV show we’ve been vibing on. And so, this week, I can hop on up there. 


Yeah. Jump on over.


Jump on up there first thing. And my DT this week is, hold on. The thing that is giving me dopamine right now as we’re recording this episode, Jarritos. I’m sure you know of it, at least in the US and North America generally, Jarritos is a brand of soft drink that was founded in 1950 by Don Francisco Hill in Mexico. And now it’s owned by a big company called Novamex, which is just like a big, you know how big companies kind of just do a lot of stuff now. Where it’s like, Disney has oil rigs, interesting. And you’re somehow, you look at the connection and you’re like, I guess they do. And it’s really weird. So I think it’s that kind of thing, but it was founded in 1950 and it’s usually in glass bottles, but sometimes in plastic bottles and usually about 16 ounces, 17 ounces per bottle.

Jordan (47:59):

A very classic glass silhouette.

Lex (48:01):

And three flavors that you usually see are grapefruit, lime, and mandarin orange. But they have a lot of other flavors, like I’m drinking a fruit punch one right now. But it’s just good. It’s just a tasty Mexican soda that is light and refreshing and tastes so good with tacos, specifically from Flash Taco in Chicago. I just got that for lunch the other day. Oh yeah.

Jordan (48:32):

It just hits.

Lex (48:33):

So good. So good. And so that’s really what’s bringing me dopamine is that throughout this episode, as we’ve been recording, I’ve been able to take a couple little breaks and sip on some delicious fruit punch Jarritos and I can’t imagine anything that could be giving me more dopamine in this moment, you know?

Jordan (48:50):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I grew up drinking them too. They always had them at WinCo, which is the best grocery store in the world, Dopamine Trampoline for another day. My favorite flavor was always the tamarind ones, but they’re all good. They’re all good.

Lex (49:06):

Yeah. Can’t go wrong. And if you haven’t tried it because you’re not in North America, I’m assuming would be the only reason that you haven’t, I hope that you can soon get your hands on a bottle. It’s just nice. It’s just a tasty soda.

Jordan (49:21):

Yeah. And I mean, drinking soda out of a glass bottle is already an elevated experience.

Lex (49:28):

Yeah, your way to drink. So what’s yours?

Jordan (49:31):

So mine is kind of topically relevant to the conversation that we’ve been having. Cuz I know you mentioned bog bodies.

Lex (49:39):

Okay. I’m worried now.

Jordan (49:41):

You are familiar with the Irish musician Hozier, correct? 


Oh yeah. 


Yeah. So not just Hozier, although I love his music, I am a big fan of that. Seen him in concert and he is a wonderfully talented musician. Like somebody who legitimately is just very skilled and I respect that.

Lex (49:56):

And so tall.

Jordan (49:58):

So tall.

Lex (49:59):

Like, you okay up there?

Jordan (50:01):

I hope so. I sincerely hope so, sir.

Lex (50:03):

Mr. Andrew, are you okay up there?

Jordan (50:06):

I feel like people joke about him being the crypted celebrity. And I feel like that holds true. Not because of the whole, he’s like a forest spirit thing, but because I feel like I know so many people who have met him in a really weird random experience or know somebody who knows him or really random connections. And I’m just like, what do you do in your life?

Lex (50:28):

Or people also just see him around Dublin all the time. Getting on the bus, getting a coffee. He’s just there. Which makes sense. You’re allowed to live your life, sir. But you’re so tall and you’re moving amongst the rest of us being so tall. And do you not expect people to notice? I don’t know. He’s so tall.

Jordan (50:46):

He’s an extremely tall man.

Lex (50:48):

I don’t know what I would do if I met someone that, well, no, I guess I do know what I’d do if I met people that tall. Cause I have before. It’s not that I haven’t met that tall people. Just like, I don’t know. Anyways, this is nothing. Tell me more.

Jordan (51:02):

So in this specific Dopamine Trampoline, it’s not just Hozier. It’s specifically the video that he accidentally posted on Instagram.

Lex (51:12):

Oh no. Wait, the handsome Squidward one? Yes. Oh no. Oh, what a delightful. Oh good. Okay. Sorry. Keep going. I’m sorry.

Jordan (51:24):

We’ll post a link to it. So if you have not yet experienced this, you can, but it’s Hozier with an Instagram filter making the most stereotypical fuckboy face.

Lex (51:37):

Yeah. You know the Instagram filter that people called the handsome Squidward filter cause it made you have a really big square masculine jaw and made your eyebrows look really funky. And of course makes your eyes a little bigger like all the filters do. But he had that filter on, but then he did the thing where he rubs his hand across his mouth. Like fuckboy, thumb across the bottom lip. He was moving his head in a serpentine motion. I’m sorry that I’m taking over Jordan’s DT apparently. And just doing that very, very aggressively detailed word picture, but I really need you all in the audience to know what this video means. Not just to Jordan, but to me as well.

Jordan (52:17):

The description of it is also bringing me dopamine. So it’s very appropriate.

Lex (52:20):

It’s also so weird cuz he’s our age, isn’t he in his late twenties or something?

Jordan (52:30):

I have no idea.

Lex (52:31):

This could have been one of our friends or family members.

Jordan (52:34):

Yeah. But it’s not, it’s internationally renowned musician, Andrew Hozier Byrne. And it’s delightful in so many ways. Just on the surface, from the explanation of it, it’s fucking funny. But also the fact that it was posted accidentally and I don’t like anybody’s privacy being violated or sharing something they didn’t wanna share. But I think it’s the circumstance that out of anything a celebrity could have accidentally put on the internet. That’s-

Lex (53:04):

The funniest fucking thing.

Jordan (53:07):

Funny and harmless, you know, it’s not like it was nudes or something racist or something like that.

Lex (53:16):

He said he had meant to send it to a group chat with his friend.

Jordan (53:19):

He was like, this was just for the lads.

Lex (53:21):

And it was for everybody and bless the people who screen recorded immediately, or else we wouldn’t have seen it cuz he took it down pretty quick. Yeah. But then he posted the apology video, which I feel like made it even better. Cuz it’s the embarrassment.

Jordan (53:37):

Yeah. But, again, that it was such a mild, innocuous, just goofy little thing that he made a whole apology video.

Lex (53:44):

Yep. So fucking funny.

Jordan (53:47):

Just delightful on so many levels.

Lex (53:50):

He really needed us to know that he’s not actually a fuckboy.

Jordan (53:54):

And you know what? I believe it. I don’t follow a whole lot of celebrities or invest myself in their personas, but there’s a unique, very genuine piece of heart in that entire situation that never fails to delight me.

Lex (54:07):

It is so good.


It’s so fucking funny.

Lex (54:09):

If for some reason it gets around, there is a podcast episode that talks specifically about this video that you posted, sir, Mr. Byrne.

Jordan (54:17):

Thank you. I’m sorry.

Lex (54:20):

Sorry. Sorry we’re making fun of you. I know we’ve never met. We still are gonna continue to make fun of you and, you know, maybe in a loving way. In a very respectful way. Yeah. In a respectful way, but also not too respectful, cuz it was fucking funny when you used a Squidward filter and pretended to be a fuckboy. That was genuinely one of the funniest things you could have done. Thank you.

Jordan (54:45):

So many moving parts to it that just made it delightful. If you want an apology pint next time I am in Dublin I will happily oblige. Call us.

Lex (54:55):

Yeah, you got ADHD? You wanna talk about ADHD? Hey, people, you want this podcast to be better?

Jordan (54:59):

Get Hozier on it.

Lex (55:00):

Get Hozier on it. You know what to do, internet.

Jordan (55:03):

Yeah, yeah, #hozierlearnsparkour. Make it trend.

Lex (55:08):

Hozier learns parkour. Yeah. We don’t know how to do parkour so we can’t teach him, but we’ll figure it out.

Jordan (55:14):

But here’s the thing, I think that the mental image of that is maybe enough for it to gain traction and people will wanna know what’s this all about.

 Lex (55:21):

True. He’s so tall. That would look maybe a little, okay, yeah. No, you’re just fucking like Bigfoot running and jumping from building to building in Dublin. Yeah, now I kind of need it. Yeah, give us a call. 


Yeah. Well let’s link up. 


Yeah. That’s amazing. Thank you. Sorry, I kind of co-opted it, but I did not know you were bringing that and I’m so happy you did. It is very fun. I feel like when one or both of us have Dopamine Trampolines that the other one is like, hey, me too.

Jordan (55:47):

I know that there’s a list somewhere of things that we’ve meant to do as a joint. But when they happen spontaneously, that’s just special.

Lex (55:55):

It’s just like, bestie.

Jordan (55:57):

Besties. We’re so connected.

Lex (55:59):

We’re so connected.


All right. Let’s end this episode.

Lex (56:02):

Oh, please.

Jordan (56:03):

This has been Or, Learn Parkour from Wholehearted Production Company.

Lex (56:06):

You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Stitcher, you know, anywhere that cool people find their podcasts.

Jordan (56:12):

Special thanks to Krizia Perito for our cover art design. You can find her at Petalhop, that’s P-E-T-A-L-H-O-P on Instagram and Twitter and Etsy. Get some cool stickers.

Lex (56:25):

Yay. Thank you as well to Tom Rosenthal for our intro and outro, there is a Dark Place off of the album Keep a Private Room Behind the Shop.

Jordan (56:31):

You can follow us on the soshe meds, we are @orlearnparkour on Twitter. We are @wearewpc, that stands for Wholehearted Production Company, on Instagram and at wearewpc.com.

Lex (56:45):

You can find links to all that as well as links to sources, transcripts, and a specific video that, you know, was technically deleted. So you can pretend it’s unseen footage. I don’t know, but we’ll put those links in our episode description.

Jordan (56:58):

We sure will. If you enjoy this podcast and want to hear more now is a great time to follow or subscribe, click that “give me more of this” link. And if you wanna start a podcast of your own, click our Buzzsprout affiliate link in, you guessed it, the episode description. You get a great website to host your podcast, access to tons of their actually very helpful resources. Your show is listed in every major podcast platform, which makes life a lot easier than filling out so many forms online, and the company of over a hundred thousand podcasters already using Buzzsprout. Plus we get a little something something to keep the lights on and you get to know that you help support an indie show.

Lex (57:39):

Yeah. You could also support the show by sharing it with friends, enemies, lovers.

Jordan (57:46):

Favorite musicians.

Lex (57:46):

Yes. Hmm. That’s an idea. Or if you’re feeling super spicy, you could donate straight to our Ko-fi, which you can find a link to in our Twitter or Instagram.

Jordan (57:56):

You sure can. Every little bit helps and we appreciate y’all a lot.

Lex (58:01):

So much.

Jordan (58:02):

I’m Jordan. 


And I’m Lex. 


And this has been Or, Learn Parkour. We’ll see you in two weeks.

Lex (58:07):

Wait, sorry. And I’m Master Lex..

Jordan (58:12):


OLP 035: Give Me That ADHDussy – Transcript

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